Samdhong Rinpoche Interview – India 2017 Transcript

April 5, 2017

Dharamsala, India

Karuna Project – Mount Madonna School

 
Ward Mailliard: So, for me, one of the greatest honors that our students at Mount Madonna have is to meet this gentleman here, Samdhong Rinpoche, for me, he makes a connection between the Buddhist teachings which go back so far, and ideas that are just coming out now in modern education about what real education is. We asked Rinchen Khando today a little bit about what real education is and in the last interview he spent some time talking about education. It so ties in with the ethos of our program at Mount Madonna, and this class, because at one level, when he talks about education, we’re talking about the development of discernment. And it’s one thing to talk about it, it’s another thing to have an example of discernment sitting with you. And today we have that privilege and that honor, and to me this is one of those times when hopefully you’ll be able to revisit this on the video over time and actually let it sink in. Because these kinds of teachings; you live with them, and gradually, they expose themselves to you for what their meaning is. He’s one of my greatest teachers in my life, I pay attention to what he says, so, thank you very much, and thank you for allowing us this time with you.

So first, is there anything you’d like to say as a- any opening remark you’d like to say?

Samdhong Rinpoche: No I don’t, just only say welcome to India, and particularly welcome to Dharamsala. One thing I must tell you in advance is that I have nothing new or special which might be interesting to you, or beneficial to you, nevertheless, I have spent major portion of my life in the field of education, and then also I have many close friends who have been thinking about the education system all over the world, particularly in India, particularly after India’s independence. India’s education system has been challenged, questioned, and tried to modified, not very successful. So I have been a part of this journey after 1959. So there may be some experience, otherwise I’m not so-called educationist or something, expert in education. So please, go ahead.

Nathan Vince: So, my name’s Nate and I was wondering if you could tell us about how your journey from Tibet to India in 1959 informed your life.

Samdhong Rinpoche: 1959, I was just 19 years old and happily and peacefully studying in my monastery till the 10^th March of 1959. 10^th March was just after the Molam festival, the Molam festival is one of the greatest festival in the year, in central Tibet, we had the all three major Buddhist monastic institutions get together, the Drepung, Sera, and Ganden, for three weeks in Lhasa, and during which the three monasteries- top scholars who are graduating from the (can’t understand) degree, have to give the final examination there, and that year, His Holiness was also one of the candidates, and it was very special occasion, and we are so happy, and there are about eighteen other Geshes and including His Holiness the examination process completed and the (can’t understand) was completed. I think it was around first March, or second March, the Molam festival concluded, and then tenth March the uprising had happened, and after tenth March, seven days passed through a great deal of tension, fear, and doubts. Then seventeenth March; the night His Holiness escaped from the Nawalanka. Then eighteenth, nineteenth, twenty-three days just passed and the night around twelve o’clock, the bombardment started. So I remained in the monastery the whole day of the twenty-first and Sera Monastery was partially damaged and Nawalanka almost the surroundings are destroyed, and (can’t understand), one of the monasteries are completely damaged, and a few bombshells are landed near the monastery, which shake the whole monastery. So then we are not able to stay in the monastery and the night of the twenty-first we escaped. And then it took about twenty, twenty-five days; I do not remember exactly, and in the first week of April, we arrived in the Indian border. And we remained in the Indian border for about ten days, then we were accepted as a political refugee, and (can’t understand) inside India, and then there are some- since we are coming through the Arunachal Pradesh, the best camp was Assam near (can’t understand), and we stayed about four, five months there. Then gradually, the people are (can’t understand) for certain kinds of work, and rehabilitation, all this.

So through my journey, two or three nights are very hardship, otherwise it was ok, not much problem, so since then, we live in India, 1959- last fifty-four, fifty-five years. So that is the whole story, it’s not very big even, but it was changing the whole perspective on life is completely changed- so that is something big happening for us.

Izabella Thomas: Hi, my name’s Izabella. In the forward on your website you said, “people are taught to compare and compete, so that ignorance and greed escalate endlessly, reducing individuals to mere consuming machines. We have lost the power of discernment and cannot differentiate between need and greed.” Can you speak more on the loss of discernment in our society, and how to reverse that trend?

Samdhong Rinpoche: This is my personal view about the present world, and it is not only my view, there are many scholars and leaders, not only spiritual leaders, but social, economic, (can’t understand), also do agree with this viewpoint. But I do not say our viewpoint is the correct one, and the others are wrong. Each individual has a different world view, and it is right. Only what we are saying is no one should carry a blind faith, everybody should be a rational mind, and a power of discrimination, and with one’s own logic and reasoning, what we will find is, one has the right to believe it until it is logically proved wrong, otherwise one has- if we look back to the history of mankind, or the history of this planet earth, millions of years have been passed and there was not much change, nor there was any urgency for the humanity. There was limitation of physical comforts in the ancient times, but that physical discomfort was compensated by peace of mind, and once a person is happy in his or her mind, the physical discomforts are negligible; they can be ignored, or they can be overlooked. Then the science and technology developed. It was not a long history, at most 300 years, 250 years, and even the most powerful modern scientific technology is just 200 years old. And then twentieth century has a very special kind of change, these changes have been (can’t understand) as revolutions, I don’t know they are in real sense revolutions or not, but there was tremendous change taking place and this change, if we try to find out the cause of this change, the cause of this change is industrialization. The humanity has regained, or rediscovered the mission (can’t understand), and which empowered the humanity to produce the commodities much more than the human need. In the ancient times, every village, or every town, the economy is interdependent to whole members of a society, and they were self-sufficient, and things are being produced according to the needs of the members of society, and those needs are being fulfilled. And beyond need, they are not consuming the resources, nor do they overuse the nature and they are very friendly with the environment, and the needs are appropriate to give comfort to the physical body, and to also give satisfaction to the mindset, and that gives a balance. The whole system of the universe is dependent on middle path, or balance, avoiding the extremes. Whenever we touch to the extremes, or lose the balance, then there’s a problem, there’s a challenge.

So when the human gained the capacity to produce much more than our need, then the producers need to market them, because what they produced cannot go in the waste, they must gain some profit out of it, and for that, they need a system of market economy. And then they need the market- they are quite intelligent, and they think how to market the surplus productions, manufactured productions, and they find that. Human greed is very easy to exploit, and in order to exploit the human greed, they find very powerful method that is comparison and then competition.

So today, the people lost the way to find out what is my need, they always look for others, if he or she has this thing, why not I should have it? So one shoe to protect your feet is not sufficient, you need different color, different shape, usage. You need one kind of slipper or shoe for your bathroom, another kind for your working, a third kind for your football, and the fourth kind for your cricket or another thing when you’re going to the office or formal. So by this way, you’re multiplying your needs, and this system of comparison- comparing the competition, has damaged the balance between competition and cooperation.

The human beings are social living beings. In today’s social science, you have to say human beings are social animals – I don’t think they are animals, but they are social beings. Since they are social beings, they have to depend on other’s cooperation. Without other’s cooperation, humans cannot survive. There are certain species in the animal kingdom that can live all alone, and even their parents did not look back right from their birth, just lay eggs somewhere and from there- and like cockerels, they are quite independent, but human beings are not. If you don’t receive the compassion, affection, and love of your parents, a human child cannot survive. So we are very much dependent on family, community, society.

Even a piece of cloth we are wearing, or a dish we are eating, apparently it is ready to use but if you look into it deeply, numerous people are involved in that. If you look to a piece of cloth, the farmers that grow the holes, or the cotton, which has a lot of work, and when it comes in the cotton, then it has to be spinning, and then it has to go to the weaver, and the weaver put a lot labor to weave it and then it has to be drying, colored, then it goes to the tailor, cut and stitch, and then it comes to you. So when reaches to you as a cloth, almost a hundred people have contributed something to that. A grain of rice, or wheat, the famers how much effort have put there, and then how it is transported to one place to another place, and then it is put in a store, then it comes to the market, you purchase it, and then you make it flour and then the kitchen you cook it. So with so many people’s contribution you are able to eat some food.

So we are dependent on cooperation. The balance between cooperation and competition- the competition I always think of winner and looser, no one compete for the sake of losing. Everyone competes for the sake of winning. That means you have to defeat someone, and that person who defeated by you, you cannot expect some cooperation from that person. So this is one of the disbalances. And similarly in this way, then the greed is very much increased, exploited, exploited disproportionately, then it has many other consequences. One consequence is since you have to compete and you have to be win, then your own rights are considered very important, so then the balance between the right and irresponsibility is also destroyed. So you always talk about right, right, right, individual right. See, we have a huge organization, so called the United Nations Organization, and it is considered to be the largest and most powerful organization in this world. They have a declaration of human rights, that they never talk about- they haven’t a piece of paper about human responsibility, human duties, and that is completely neglected.

And similarly, the importance of society and individual, that also need to be a balance. And this balance is also destroyed due to talking about more importance given to the individual right, and when there is complete between individual right and society’s right, and the individual right is trying to overreach the community or the society’s right, and so forth. So there are many of this kind of thing.

So now the human way to look to the things, we are considered to be a consumer. No more we are user. In the ancient time, the humanity is user of resources. Resources can be used, and the use means you are using the thing, and you are also recycling, or restoring what you have used. Usefulness and using has a connotation that you are not destroying it. It has a very good expression in Hindi, or Sanskirt, ‘Opa yog and opa bog’ (unsure of spelling). ‘Opa yog’ means just to use it for your need, and at the same time, you’re giving something back. If we are using some natural resources, we try to recreate, or regenerate that resource for the coming generation.

So now we are become consumer, consumer means to consume, consume is just to destroy and not constrain for recycling or restoring or recreating that resource. So that creates what I should say the (can’t understand) destruction, and the scarcity of resources. Now the people are talking about the scarcity of drinking water and there are forecasts that 2020 or 2030 the world will face scarcity of drinking water. And we are already facing the clean (can’t understand), water and (can’t understand) is the essential commodity for surviving. We can live weeks together without any food, but we cannot live without water more than 72 waters. And we cannot leave a good (can’t understand) more than one hour, or half an hour. So these are the basic essential commodities for surviving of not only human beings, all sentient beings. But we have polluted the earth, and we have polluted the water. There’s more and more scarcity of these.

So our outlook is: the whole world is either a resource or consumer, there’s no other thing. Even the human beings have been considered a resource, and they are to be (can’t understand) through so-called education. And when we arrived in India in 1959, when the Tibetan schools were established at that time, we used to have a Ministry of Education in the central government, now we don’t have. This is Ministry of Human Resource Development. All the (can’t understand) are resources, and you have to process them according to the needs of the corporate houses; what they tell, what kind of human they need. Engineers, or doctors, or accountants, or bureaucrats. So by this way, the human resource planning and the human resource development, which suppresses the basic individual capacity and intelligence, and they are not allowed to awake the human intelligence. They just say- they just impose information. Not knowledge, information, according to their own curriculum, or their own needs. So by this way, we are deprived of awakening our inner intelligence which is of a natural gift we have of birth, and that has been suppressed.

And on the contrary, we have been indoctrinated and input a kind of brainwashing or indoctrination so you have to look everything this way, you have to compete. If you have to survive, you have to compete. And if you need to survive, you must be a good consumer. So this kind of indoctrination always goes there. So by this way- my late friend, Jiddu Krishnamurti, used to say over and over again that education means to assist the student to awake his or her inner intelligence so that he or she can flower in goodness. Goodness cannot be trained, or taught. Goodness needs to be a natural flowering. And for that you need to awake your own inner intelligence so that you are not carried away by (can’t understand) or by indoctrination. So you are able to discriminate what is right and what is wrong. The power of distinction; that is wisdom that you must have.

So this is my outlook. I’m sorry, I’m talking too much.

Savannah Willoughby: Hi, my name’s Savannah and what are the most important aspects of Tibetan culture and religion that you’re trying to preserve as a teacher?

Samdhong Rinpoche: There are many, many, important so I don’t know how to choose one. Your question is most important aspect of Tibetan culture; the word culture is being used in so many different ways. As I mentioned, when culture is translated into Hindi, or Sanskrit, it becomes ‘saanskrtik’. ‘Saanskrtik’ means ‘well-prepared’ or ‘well-matured’. And that comes to Tibetan language ‘li-chan’ (unsure of spelling). ‘Li’ means well, ‘chan’ means well practiced and well acquainted. So therefore, in our vocabulary, the culture goes- the word of culture goes only with the positive things, good things, not the negative things. But in the western, all habit is I think calling the culture because some of my western friends used to say ‘culture of war,’ ‘culture of violence.’ In our concept, the violence, and the war, and the destruction, does not have a culture. All this are uncultured activities. So by this way, in our outlook, culture is something in the mind that is fully cultivated in a positive way and when it is fully cultivated, then that is a culture.

So by this way, Tibetan culture is by-and-large influenced or built on Buddhist philosophy and His Holiness, the Fourteenth Dalai Lama. The entire Buddhist thought, is divided into three categories; Buddhist dharma, that means Buddhist religion, Buddhist science, and Buddhist philosophy. Buddhist science and Buddhist philosophy is common to everyone. And Buddhist dharma, or Buddhist religion is only (can’t understand) Buddhist- Buddhists who are having faith in Buddhism. Dharma is an individual, but science and philosophy is all common.

And what he talks about science is Buddhist psychology, Buddhist science of mind, and Buddhist science about the physics and metaphysics. All this are belonging to Buddhist science. And philosophies like (can’t understand) philosophy, or mind-alone philosophies, (can’t understand), say, idealism, or materialism. So this can be compared with western philosophy also.

So the culture, what did Tibetan people have preserved for the last 1,300 years, is a culture of non-violence. The culture of non-violence was lost in Tibet itself for the last 200 years. Lost means much degraded; it was not strong. That’s the only reason Tibet was occupied by communist China. Because we are not able to resist nonviolently. We are trying to resist by counter violence. So counter violence is unequal, so therefore, we are not able to resist.

So in the very short thing I can say, the most important Tibetan culture which need to be preserved is culture of non-violence. Culture of non-violence based on three basic principles. The three basic principles are: all sentient being are by nature equal, there’s no higher or lower, all sentient beings are equal. The reason is all sentient beings are looking for happiness and trying to avoid unhappiness. No one is willing to accept unhappiness, and everyone’s looking for happiness, peace, pleasure, not wanting misery, pain, or suffering. So this is right from the small insect to the elephant or dinosaurs, this is by nature. And the third basic reality is that each one has the equal right to look for, to endure for, achieving happiness, and to avoid the misery and unhappiness. So therefore, there’s no basis to discriminate among the sentient beings. Someone are for the love and kindness, and some the others are for the object of hate and anger. So therefore, violence is not acceptable from one’s own selfish viewpoint, or violence is not acceptable for the sake of others’ welfare, violence is not acceptable for the welfare of the community or society. All these three label; one’s own selfish label, if you are violent, then they are bound to be counter-violence, the counter-violence- you will be able to face, or you will not be able to face, depends on the principle of survival of the fitness, maybe will prevail at that time.

So if you want to preserve, to protect your own benefits, your own selfish ends. You need to be non-violent. And of course the others- you are not willing to accept violence to you, then how can you expect the others would accept your violence? So therefore, from the other viewpoints, it is not acceptable. And for the peace of family, for the of community, for the peace of society, in that level also it’s not- it is not a religious doctrine. Of course religion talks about the non-violence, and if you are a religious practitioner, you have to practice non-violence. But even if you are a non-believer, having no faith in any religion, yet a secular- a totally secular person, we cannot accept violence as something good, which is acceptable as human beings. So therefore, the first and foremost, is non-violent culture which we are not able to preserve properly. And if we are able to restore it, then I think the Tibet question, or Tibet problem, can also be solved.

Publically, when I was in that demonstration, I used to say publically, ‘if we are able to prepare hundreds sincere true non-violent people among our society, we can regain our autonomy within 24 hours.’ But we are not able to produce, or prepare, such nonviolent people. (can’t understand). Ghandi has told the same thing, when Ghandi was in the Indian freedom struggle, he used to say, ‘if I get a hundred satyagrahi’- satyagrahi means a person who involves in the non-cooperation movement, who has absolutely no trace of hate, or anger, towards British people, and full of loving kindness to them, but disagreement to the action which they are taking.

So Buddha has said that the negative emotion is the cause of injustice, and the person who are doing the injustice, is not to be blamed, because he or she is down to the influence of negative emotions. So we have to fight against the emotion, and we have to love and compassionate to the actor. So we are not able to differentiate between action and actor. So therefore, the most important is nonviolence. Nonviolent culture. And then which is a (can’t understand), the vast treasure of knowledge, which coming from (can’t understand), which are preserved not only in Tibetan language and Tibetan tradition. So His Holiness is trying to give it back to the Indian people, so it’s coming from India. So these are some of the important things.

Isabella Bettencourt: Hi, my name’s Isabella. What do you think are the greatest challenges facing Tibetans who’ve grown up outside of their home country?

Samdhong Rinpoche: (can’t understand). I am not very close in touch with the now, the Tibetan S.L. community since last six years, I have been retired from all official responsibilities. But generally, I see the challenges are two-fold. A challenge which is facing the entire humanity, which Tibetans are no exception, we are facing their challenge squarely, and among those challenges such as increase of violence, and the gap between ‘have’ and ‘have nots’, and environment degradation, and then so called civilization (can’t understand) all religious intolerance. These are the present world challenges which keep the humanity on a very negative side.

And then apart from that, the Tibetans living outside of Tibet, a very tiny population. By number, it is not big. When I was in office, the total population of S.L. communities: about 155,000, and out of which about 90,000 lives in India, and the rest, about 60,000, all over the world. But I don’t know, in spite of such a small population, the visibility is quite strong. Wherever you go, you can see some of the Tibetans in exile. I don’t know why, but it is a fact.

And now, the social structures that the Tibetans who have came in the exile in 1959, are all my age group, or older than me, so 60, or 70% of them already passed away. So now I think 20, or 30% might remain, but all of them in the very old age, like me. And the rest population is born and brought up in exile, number one. And a few population who have crossed the border in recent times- recent times means after ‘70s, and ‘80s, ‘90s. Then, after 2008, that has been also closed. So these are the little younger generation. So who crossed later on are mostly born and brought up under the Chinese occupation. So they are largely educated, or not educated, they are under occupation. They are born and brought up outside. They’re mindset is very (can’t understand). There is some kind of influence of tradition- Tibet tradition. And also, greater influence of the host country. For example, living in India, their might be- go through Tibetan schools, the Tibetan schools are not different than Indian schools, only the Tibet language is taught, otherwise they have to go through the board examinations, that is Indian system. And then they go to the colleges or universities of India, and (can’t understand) with the Indian people. And they are half Indians, and half Tibetans. And they have a strong sense of, I don’t know what I should say, a kind of attachment to their own nation, the Tibet race, or Tibet nation. And they are confused how to regain their nationhood, or how to reconcile their future. There is no clear concept of what is free Tibet, and some of them think that independence is only freedom, and many others think about His Holiness’ teaching of the middle path; remain as a part of the P.R.C., yet the national region autonomy as enshrined in China’s constitution should be provided. And there are a few that do not have any sense of how to return to ones’ own motherland. And they are thinking how to take up carrier wherever they leave or they stay.

And the basic problem I see is a problem with identity. As traditional Tibetans, they do not think about anything identity. But the younger generation in exile, who have gone through modern education, they are being taught some kind of nationalism, and some kind of feeling for identity. And this feeling for identity makes them restless, and I don’t know how to remedy. These are the challenges, these challenges are invisible, only few people can feel it. But it is the pervasive challenge each individual has been facing, but you interview the individuals- their challenge may be livelihood, their challenge may be economic resources, and how to settle themselves with security, the sense of insecurity. But this sense of insecurity among the Tibetans, from my viewpoint, is a sense of insecurity which has come out of the sense of void of identity, unclarity of their own identity, and that makes some sense of insecurity.

So this is my outlook. I may be wrong, but I see like this.

Aki’o Nanamura: Hi, my name’s Aki’o. In an interview with Mount Madonna School, you talked about reading a newspaper headline which said, ‘never mind human rights, money matters.’ You said, “this speaks for the leadership of the modern nations, there are very good people at the grassroots, but the leadership, those who matter, those who have the power to get things done, they’re only looking for trade and economic gain.” My question is; what do we need to do to shift societies ideas of success and reorder our priorities?

Samdhong Rinpoche: I don’t know; this is a very big question. To shift the societies priorities, very big question. What we can do at this moment as an individual, or as a mindful, or rational person, we can think of shifting our own priorities. Ghandi used to say, ‘what you wish to change in society, change in yourself first, and then you can begin something.’ The closest that all this disharmony or negative things are if you analyze them, they are all rooted in the greed, human greed. Gaining for more economic power, or economic resources. For a poor individual is also looking for his or her own livelihood to make better and to (can’t understand). And big business houses and corporate houses, only the scale is different, otherwise the greed is the same. And the nations, all the nations are now- everything can be compromised, only the economic gain can be compromised. That’s why I got this, ‘never mind human rights.’ So human rights is negotiable, and economic gain is non-negotiable. So that has to be achieved.

So why this kind of mindset? It’s because you have a deep, deep rooted greed. Greed for economic power. And there is a misconception, the misconception which is created intentionally by the producers, or by the corporate houses, is that economic wellbeing is the only source for human happiness, or human wellbeing. And every happiness, or every good things can be purchased if you are rich enough. And if you are not rich enough, you cannot achieve any happiness. This concept is being indoctrinated in the mind of people, very deep rootedly. So now all these so called democratic countries, when they go for elections, the election campaign is only centered on economic development, trade, economic development, trade, except these two, there’s no mention of education, health, or social wellbeing. They’re taking for granted that if education is developed and infrastructure is built, that human beings will be very happy. And in that case, among the rich society, there should not be any unhappiness, there should not be any cases of suicide and other things in the rich family. But unfortunately today, we read in the newspapers and the media that the rate of suicide is much higher in the developed countries than in the poor countries. So it shows that the economic can not only give the physical, mental satisfaction. Physical comfort may be purchased, but mental peace and mental satisfaction, cannot be purchased, that shall have to be achieved from the inside.

His Holiness the Dalai Lama is trying to bring suggestion, or idea of a universally acceptable ethics, for believers and nonbelievers equal. And he’s trying to suggest the people right from the childhood to watch ones’ own mind and to differentiate the negative emotions and positive emotions and watch what the negative emotions give you; good things or bad things, and watch what the positive emotions give you; good things or bad things. So this kind of analytical approach to ones’ own insight, ones’ own mindset, then we might be able to- he’s very polite, he does not attack the modernity or the greed as I used to, but in a different way, he’s also talking how to reduce the human greed, and how to increase the love and kindness, and mindfulness. So by this way, we might be able to shift the human attitude from present to some better way. So this is his hope and we are working on that.

It may be helpful for many people, of course it cannot bring a change overnight. But the seed some change can be sewed, and we have to wait long time to achieve that.

Isaac Harris: Hi.

Samdhong Rinpoche: Hi.

Isaac Harris: My name’s Isaac. Congressman John Lewis, who worked with Martin Luther King, told us that “nonviolence is not something you just turn on and off, it is a way of life.” So can you speak more on the commitment and process of nonviolence, and do you constantly have to be vigilant about it?

Samdhong Rinpoche: The statements of Martin Luther King is very powerful and he speaks from his heart and experience. And he was a very faithful follower of Gandhi’s idea, and he had very rightly said that ‘nonviolence is not like a light bulb you can switch on, or you can switch off, it’s just a way of life.’ Unless and until you reduce and subside the anger and the hate, the nonviolent behavior cannot be achieved. So to achieve the nonviolence as a way of life, you have to have control over your negative emotions, which is called hate, anger, jealousy, (can’t understand), or this shall have to be- I don’t use the word controlled, but shall have to be reduced and antidotes of these emotions need to be cultivated in our minds.

So the process is, I think, the analytical thinking. Contemplating what is the benefit of violence and what is the harm of violence? What is the benefit of nonviolence and what is the harm of nonviolence? And any problem, any problem of individual, or any problem of family or community, if you look into the depth, no problem can be sustainably solved through violent methods. And all problems, whatever it may be, big or small, can be solved if you are able to use the nonviolent methods appropriately and sincerely. So, if you don’t want any problem of challenge, and you don’t want any suffering, then only the way is to approach to that problem through nonviolent solutions.

Here I am reminded of another Martin Luther King’s statements which is related to the present situation, present world situation. He said, ‘we have no choice between violence and nonviolence, only choice is between nonviolence and nonexistence.’ The power of destruction is developed in such scale by the humanity and which is demonstrated very clearly in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That is old time now, after that, destructive powers is much more. So he was very right that now we have no choice between violence and nonviolence, and the only choice left to us is nonviolence or nonexistence; if we go into nonviolence in search of any solution to any problem, national, international, or individual, or family. So therefore, nonviolence shall have to be a way of life.

Again, there’s two different approaches to nonviolence. In the modern times, nonviolence adapted as a faith, and nonviolence adapted as a strategy. So nonviolence adapted strategy has no value, it is not nonviolence. And nonviolence practiced or implemented from a faith, that is only real nonviolence. So if nonviolence is used as a strategy, then that strategy can be changed at any time, and then they may come back to violence as well. So the faith on the power of nonviolence, is the foundation before using nonviolent methods to solving any kind of problem. So that is difficult to cultivate. And once you cultivate your faith in the nonviolence- but you are intelligent enough and you are able to analyze the pros and cons of nonviolence, and weigh them properly, then you will find that nonviolence has much, much more value than the violence methods.

Nathan Vince: Hello.

Samdhong Rinpoche: Hello.

Nathan Vince: So in an article by the Guardian in 2011, you said when referring the Tibetan government in exile that “without the Dalai Lama, we will not have any legitimacy in the eyes of Tibetans. It is a real question before us and we have to find a solution.” Since making that statement six years ago, have you found any possible answers as to what needs to happen in the Tibetan community with the Dalai Lama separated from the governing structure?

Samdhong Rinpoche: Yes, when I was giving the interview to the Guardian, it was very much a relevant question in their minds, and this idea remained for a long time. Now recently, a book came out by German author, she lives in India, it is in the English language- ‘Tibet- Theocracy to Democracy’, and in which, the process of devolving His Holiness’ political responsibilities to the elected leadership, and in which she has given all the details of the process.

It was eleventh March, 19:00, 2011, His Holiness finally gave a message to the Tibet parliament in exile, that now in this session, you must amend your charter, and His Holiness should be free from all his traditional political responsibilities. And at that time, the parliament in exile unanimously resolved that His Holiness should not do this, and he must remain as a head of political leadership, and he reject that. And after, another request was made; he may remain as a symbolic head, like British Queen or King. That also he rejected. And then finally, the question is; without His Holiness’ involvement, the people of Tibet will not give legitimacy to the Central Tibet Administration or the Tibet government in exile, because the election system is practiced only by the Tibetans in diaspora, and the Tibetans inside Tibet has no way to participate in it. And by that way, the majority of the six million people in Tibet, who are inside Tibet, is looking at His Holiness as the symbol of Tibet. Tibet is the Dalai Lama, and the Dalai Lama is Tibet. And since he’s heading the organization, that is real represented organization of the Dalai Lama, and therefore, I said we are not able to gain legitimacy.

Then after a great deal of discussion between His Holiness and the Tibetan parliament in exile and a small committee for emergencies, so we finally request him not to dissociate himself from the overall setup of the organization which may call by the Tibetans, ‘the Tibetan government in exile,’ or by others, ‘the central Tibetan organization.’ There must be some kind of relationship between the Dalai Lamas and the organization. So we have added two clauses to the charter as a preamble, and in that preamble it is said that the substance of the Dalai Lamas will be the protector, and the guiding force of the Tibetans, that’s one. And therefore, he will have, by virtue of the institution of the Dalai Lama, he will have the power to advice the administration or the parliament from time to time, whenever he feels necessary. And also, the parliament or the Kashag, or the cabinet, can approach him for advice or guidance. And then he also represents Tibet when he meets the outside leaderships, the nations, international scenario, the leader of countries- at that time, he will represent Tibet. And also, the representatives of His Holiness in the various countries, will remain as His Holiness’ representatives. So, these three things are included into the preamble of the charter. So that is considered to give a certain kind of legitimacy, although he does not have any constitutional power, but still the constitution, or the charter says that he is the protector and the real representative of Tibet. Therefore, he must look after this organization, so this relationship is kept there.

So of course it is- there is much difference now, six years have passed and it is slowly gaining that legitimacy, and I think now it will evolve like this.

Ward Mailliard: So we have one more question, but before we go to that, I’m curious about what you have heard Samdhong Rinpoche say, that has struck you. What have you heard?

Nathan Vince: I found what you said about consumerism really interesting. About how consumers were like destroying, kind of devouring resources, rather than kind of using them in a way that they’ll recreate themselves. And it’s not a sustainable system.

Savannah Willoughby: It really struck me when you were talking about how people say, ‘oh, the culture of violence, or the culture of war,’ and stuff like that. And you said that that’s not culture, it’s uncultured. And I was thinking about it like the entire time, I was like, ‘wow, it really shouldn’t be considered culture or anything.’

Samdhong Rinpoche: But we are, in using this language- so this kind of many languages, we are now commonly accepted, we’re using. I used to point out the religious intolerance, this is also in a contradictory word. If someone is religious minded, he or she can never be intolerant. If someone is intolerant, it is the most powerful evidence that the person is not religious minded. But we use ‘religious intolerance.’ And also ‘religious tolerance.’ That’s also very bad word. Religions are to be respected, not to be tolerated. Tolerated means it is unacceptable to me but I am just tolerating it.

Devyn Powers: I found how you said people compete to win, and never compete to lose, was very interesting. And how if more people competed to lose, or just to learn, it might be a very different world.

Ward Mailliard: So, and then sort of thinking about what kind of competition could you have that would be useful, rather than destructive?

Samdhong Rinpoche: I don’t know, I don’t know. But there is a word we are very commonly using, ‘free and a fear competition.’ This is being used by the corporate world also. There must be a free and a fear competition. And you are competing and what is considered to be fear, that is one question I cannot answer. The other question is how you can be free in the competition. So freedom means you are free to win and you are free to lose, but that freedom is not used by anyone.

Ward Mailliard: Free to destroy the opposition.

Samdhong Rinpoche: Right.

Shannon Kelly: I thought it was interesting what you said about nonviolence as a strategy is not really nonviolence. I thought that was very interesting, because I know you hear a lot in community organizing, or political organizing, nonviolence as a strategy, so it just- I’m thinking a lot about that, that it has to be beyond strategy to a way of life.

Samdhong Rinpoche: Right, yes.

Vibhuti Aggarwal: I was really surprised to hear about your friendship with Jiddu Krishnamurti. My first knowledge about education, when I first started exploring what real education meant to me, I started reading him, and he talked about really difficult things and I didn’t really understand. But I kept going back because I knew he was talking so much more about classroom education, and he talked about real education. So that caught my attention.

Samdhong Rinpoche: Very good.

Vibhuti Aggarwal: And he talks about a lot of concepts about love, fear, compassion, lots of things that he’s experimented in his schools.

Samdhong Rinpoche: His dialogues with the teachers, and his dialogues with the students, they’re very interesting. And they’re dealing directly with the education system. If you read some of these books, may be more interesting.

Ward Mailliard: His work is very similar to the work of Humberto Maturana. Maturana, who I’ve worked with, who met recently with the Dalai Lama- fairly recently, a few years ago with the Dalai Lama, they had a wonderful conversation. But he talks about the concept that learning is going to happen best in an environment of intimacy, trust, and cooperation.

Samdhong Rinpoche: Right, yes.

Ward Mailliard: In dominance and submission, people become less intelligent. And he said our very humanity is based on intimacy, trust, and cooperation. Intelligence and language, he says, evolved because of intimacy, trust, and cooperation. Very similar to what Krishnamurti writes.

So as teachers, it strikes me that we need to ask our self the question when we walk through the classroom door, ‘am I conserving intimacy, trust, and cooperation, or am I conserving dominance and submission?’ Most systems are based on- education system- are based on dominance, submission, competition. And I think it’s time for us to change the education system. Otherwise humanity I think is in very deep trouble.

Samdhong Rinpoche: Yes, a lot of challenges are there.

Ward Mailliard: A lot of challenges, yeah. And you said the same thing in as many words. There’s a lot of great people who agree.

Samdhong Rinpoche: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Ward Mailliard: Thank you very much for taking the time with us, this is an incredible gift to all of us. And hopefully as we put the videos together, and put them up online- you know it was interesting that I think we’ve had over five thousand views of our interview with you. We put the interview up online. So these ideas are important ideas that need to spread out, and now we can actually use technology maybe to deal with some of the effects of technology.

If we look at our team that we bring with us; Shmuel, our photographer here, he’s been on many, many journeys with us, and Devin, who was a student at Mount Madonna, is a videographer, he contributes his time, Kayla’s contributing her time as a social media person. And so there’s a whole team behind the kids working for the sake of bringing these ideas out into the public.

And it strikes me that a big part of the strength of the Tibetan community is also based on cooperation. And it’s something that we all can look at as an example. We’re very grateful for this opportunity.

Samdhong Rinpoche: Thank you, it’s my pleasure. Thank you very much everyone.