Thulani Mabaso – Africa 2017 Transcript

June 19, 2017

Robben Island, South Africa

Ubunye Project – Mount Madonna School

 

Ward Mailliard: I think it’s always a question, you know, when you live the life Thulani has lived, ‘do you want to show up and relive that life?’ And so part of it is that gift that he gives us, being willing to step back into that world- into this world. It’s a big gift for us, that he’s willing to do that. Ok, so I hope you take full advantage of it.

Thulani Mabaso: Thank you, thank you very much. I grew up in the rural area. We-my family were a big, big clan; Mabaso. We had cattle, we had goats, we were in very good farming areas. And then suddenly, all our belongings: we lost them.What happened? The regime came to our areas, confiscated our cattle, our livestock, forcefully removed us from our beautiful land, took us in the very terrible area where there’s no (can’t understand). And there we were kept in the shanty house. And then my grandma, my grandad, they were very, very depressed. To such an extent that my grandad died of a heart attack. Out of eleven family, we were kept in the one shanty house. Sleeping- I was sleeping on the mat, on the floor, we had only one bed. We have to make a fire out of wood and it was a very heavy struggle even to get food. Because they took us out of where we were getting plenty of food, where we can get the milk from the cows, it was all those things that were taken by the regime. My grand-grandma, she had to walk to the shop and do some sweeping.

I remember she used to sweep under stoops so that she can get something, and whatever they give to her, she’s going to bring to us, so that we can be able to eat. And then we attend school, and I was attending- I didn’t have shoes. I didn’t have shoes when I go to school. And in that area, it is very cold in winter, and I have to walk almost about five kilometers to go to school, every day. Whether it’s rainy, whether it’s windy, or hot. And at the same time, while we’re in the class, we are about 80 kids and the one teacher. There were no chairs there, there was no desk. We were all sitting on the- sometimes we have a rock- you sit on top of the rock and you share the one textbook. And there was a blackboard. And sometimes I don’t have a pen. What do you use to do- if you’ve got a long pen, we used to cut so that we can give to other schoolmates, to write something there. And while we were sitting, you’ll see the police van came in with the dogs, and you know those dogs were that big. And then we, we were scared of those dogs. We would run out of class, scatter out of the area, and then when we regroup, we’ll find that some of our schoolmates are not with us: got arrested with those police. Or for some of them, disappeared without trace even today.

When we come back from like in the summer time with the terrible strong wind and some rain, they find the roof of the class is taken off by the wind. That means we, and the teachers will say, ‘all the boys must put the roof on’- we’d do that. And then while the other school kids or school children are studying under the trees- we had trees where people could sit there and study with the teacher while others are busy replacing the roof. And then we decided with our schoolmates; we need to do something. And then we were almost 300 of us. Early in the morning, I usually do the fire to warm up the water so that I can make tea for my grandma and then preparing to go to school, but that day, I didn’t come back. Sneak out of the country, passing Wavuma to Swaziland. And when we arrive in the camp, one white gentlemen-we didn’t know him at the time- he just came and asked,

‘What do you want here? What are you doing here? What do you want here?’ And I remember we said, ‘We all want guns. We want to go back and kill all the white people in South Africa. And then he just said, ‘we are not going to give you guns, you are going to go back to school.’ We didn’t like that. And then, they switched off the lights and early in the morning, they started to divide us. Then started to indoctrinate us-teaching, educating. I remember, one of the instructors said, ‘your enemy is not the white person, your enemy can be your sister, your brother, your mother. So you must identify your enemy. And we are not just going to use your weapon, you must use it in the right space. For you is not to kill, for you is to make a statement.’ You know that the man standing in front of us, was a white gentlemen, his name was Joe Slovo. There was another instructor from Soviet Union. And then from there, we started to do the P.T. trainings, the running, weapons, assembling, dissemble, all those kind of things. Studying the maps. And then I think I was chosen secretively that they’ll give me a unit of six individuals. And then I was given a map that I must come back to South Africa, and this is my target, Johannesburg, and- I don’t know, they use the term DLB. We never came into any arms but if we find them already inside the country.

And indeed, we were able to sneak out, and it was a very difficult time. You don’t know what will happen, so you have to be sure that you follow instructions. Sneak inside the country, go to Joburg, call the arm catch DLB, and then I have to assess the building. I find it very hard because the building- there was only white school kids next to that building. And then I had a very serious problem, and then I have to get my information. Then I got information that every Wednesday, these kids are going to sports, they are not going to be here- or there. Sports day. Then, we identified that Wednesday is a good day. I had a very good relationship with a gentlemen called Mr. Wilkinson, who was waiting in the entrance of the building, calling auxiliary- he was an auxiliary man. He used to be on the second World War. And then I entered the building, comes out, assess it. Then I know the right target: second floor. Then I said, ‘hey, Mr. Wilkinson, hey, can you give me- I love these army shoes.’ And he said, ‘oh you love it? I’ll get you one.’ He brought the box of new shoes, he give it to me, I used that army shoe box to put inside an explosive, limpet mine. And I walk in the building, set up the mine, set up the pin, to happen at three, it was in June.

I wanted that explosive to go off at three o’clock and then we set it up, I came out, I went to the meeting point. Then I (can’t understand), one of the ladies, she was working in one of the factories. We give her a coin to phone the building, tell those people in that anyone that pick up the phone-tell them to remove out of the building, there’s going to be an explosive, they must use the staircase. And she did and she was scared. She was very scared but she did. And then from there, I move up with my comrades, where there’s a highway, where we stood with the binoculars to observe the moving. Then I look at the watch, three o’clock, nothing happened. And then I start to get sweat, I started to get worried. But I didn’t show my comrades. But I was very much concerned, what’s happening now? And then one minute past three, the explosive took place. It shook even where I was standing. And then we slowly walked down to the area and then I started to count the casualties.

No one died, but we count those who had minor injuries. I remember one of the captain, he was bleeding here in his head, but he was not noticing that he was bleeding. So I just grab his left hand, I cover wherever the blood was coming, take him to the ambulance. He didn’t know who I am, he think I’m just a helper. And then I report the matter to Dar es Salaam, ANC headquarters. ANC in Dar es Salaam, they reported to the media to confirm it and then the whole newspaper in this country were full of the story. And then we keep on doing those underground operations.

We were going for another mission. There’s an area in Johannesburg, you are going to go there, called Park Station. It’s congested with people. It was one of the best area where we meet because no one can suspect. So we were going to meet there, then the first thing I did, I was the first one to arrive, but I didn’t go to the meeting point. I went to the restaurant, just to get something to eat. And then my body was very low, I was not, I thought, why is my body not-I’m not used to- I was very down. And then after having my small spread and then milk, then I slowly walked to the meeting point. When I arrived there, I had a lot of suspicion, you know? I said, ‘hey, I’m the first one and I’m still early, I’m the leader of the team, but now why I don’t see others?’ Then I decided to go back, immediately I turn, it was too late. I was already surrounded by the police called special branch. “Drop down your weapons! Drop down what you have!” I didn’t have anything. All I had was just an apple in my hand, then I noticed that I’m in trouble.

What I did; I throw that apple so they thought it was a hand grenade, so they could open the way then I can escape, I’m gone. But it was too late, they grab me down, I was on the floor, on the ground. They started to kick me, I’ve still got those scars here. They kicked me, they kicked me, they kicked me, they kicked me, I was bleeding. Grabbed me, then they put me in the boot of their vehicle, closed the boot, straight to John Vorster Square. In John Vorster Square, it was on the tenth floor, I was bleeding. As we enter that office, they make me to sit on the floor. They were surrounding me, so as I was sitting on the floor like this, I was still bleeding. Then, they asked me- then they came with the paper to say what must I write? And I said, ‘no, I don’t want to write.’ They asked me, ‘did you put explosive?’ I said, ‘yeah, I did.’ They asked a lot of things, then I said, ‘no.’ ‘Let’s kill him.’ Other’s said, ‘no, we need more information.’ They bring an album. When they open that- it was a big album- when they open it, they opened the right page all the time, I can recognize the faces here but I just said, ‘I don’t recognize these people.’ Then they started to beat me, they beat me, they beat me, they beat me, they beat me. You know, I screamed, then what they did, they bring in the chain. They chained my leg, they took bandage, roll it here and roll it here, then they take my hands at the back, they put the handcuffs very tight, and then they took a handkerchief, put it right inside my mouth, they took a plaster, cover my mouth, and then they bring a wet bag, cover my head. So, I couldn’t breathe properly, because when I breathe that thing was closing. Then they open my shirt that I was wearing, sprinkle water in my body, and then while I was feeling that cold and having difficulty breathing, that is when they started to shock me with the electrical shock. They shocked me, I was shaking like you know, trying to kick- up until I was wet and messy. They remove it, they remove the plaster and the handkerchief, and then the head of the torturer, Captain Zeal (unsure of spelling), he just said, ‘make the bastard to eat his mess.’ It’s when they move my (can’t understand), one of the black policemen, they call him Joe, I don’t know if it was his name, he then forcefully pushed my feces right in my mouth to swallow. Then they dragged me to their shower, take me to my solitary confinement.

I think I fainted, because I was so exhausted. When I gain consciousness, they were there. Again keep on asking lot of things, relevant questions. I didn’t want to answer them. And again what they did, they make me to lie on the floor like this. Then this hands were at the back, my legs were chained, one grabbed my shoulder and then the other one grabbed my legs. They lift me up in the air, they throw my body up, when I came down to hit the floor, the one that was grabbing my legs, he never let lose my legs, he was always assisting. Again up, come down.

Then I think I tried to tell I injured my left wrist, and I was crying, I was bleeding out of my mouth, and then they said to me, ‘we are going to take you to the doctor. If you say to the doctor what we did to you, you tell him; we’ll come back and kill you.’ They drove me to the doctor, I didn’t say anything. He asked me, ‘what happened to you?’ I didn’t say anything. And then he gave me some tablets, I don’t know what those tablets are for. And then I was taken back.

In my solitary, there were two steel doors, only one small hole where they can bring my food, or whatever. They used to give me those tablets under the small hole so they cannot see whether I am drinking them or not, so I decided not to drink them. Because I couldn’t take the pains, I wanted to commit suicide. There were twelve of those tablets, I swallowed them. I want to tell you, I stayed the whole night, nothing happened. I couldn’t sleep, I just feel tired, nothing happened. So but they never stopped coming to me.

And then from there, after a long time, they took me to the court, then I was transferred to the judge. The trial was too long -I’m not a lawyer- the trial was too long, I was not a lawyer, but I must say that I was just waiting and willing for anything. That’s when the judge sentenced me to 18 years. And then back to prison in this island.

This was my cell. I was in A section, they bring me to this one, this was my cell, these are the beds we use. And we had our secret operations. The PAC group (can’t understand), the ANC, BCM, and so on. But our role was to bring everyone together. Just there at the corner, is our bathroom, shower, cold salty water. After two minutes, you’re body’s itching because of the salt. And the same bathroom, that’s where we were doing even studying. Because at a quarter to ten, these lights were off. So the only lights that were on, are the bathroom lights, so we utilize them. Four a.m. in the morning, they’ll come and put on the lights, and then we’ll be studying to do our activities. They’ll give us our food, breakfast, porridge, not the good porridge. But we said to ourselves, ‘you must have something in your belly.’ I was very thin; I look like this. They keep us hungry all the time. We improvised, we ate, we shared. They didn’t even want to give us bread because we are blacks, Bantu. But we are able to smuggle the bread, because colored and Asian, they are given the bread. And then we share those bread amongst one another.

We learned to share, we learned to respect. But sometimes, there were differences. I remember black consciousness movement, and the Pan African Congress, they had the problem with Mandela’s idea. Felt that the ANC is soiling the country. There was a big tension here, there was a big tension. Some prisoners even physical fight. We have to come between then because we didn’t want the warden to see us fighting. And the (can’t understand) to them is going to be a very easy weapon to divide us. We always do that to maintain the peace amongst ourselves.

We had people who came here as criminals. Hardcore criminals. They were planted on us not because they were political prisoners fighting for their rights, no. Core criminal. Then when you talk to him, ‘oh what is your unit? What did you do?’ ‘No, we were just robbing the house.’ ‘Who sent you to go and do that?’ Then we notice no man, this man is plant because for their propaganda. But what’ll we do here, we will rehabilitate you, we will rehabilitate you, study. so when he left here, he must leave this area as a better person. That’s what we do here.

We had people who were spying on us, that’s bad, terrible. I used to sleep there at the corner, right there, my bed was there. You see that table- there was a bed, now there’s a table. There was two pots of water because I have to-when I sleep, I don’t have to close my eyes so that if they’ve got poison in their pocket, put it in our water, we drink the water and we all die. So I had safe-guard that drinking water. And then nobody knows- not everybody knows what my role was. Because we keep this secret but communication was there, all over.

We even communicated with the outside people about things that were happening. About us, Robben Island, about what we do, about what we’re planning, and what we want. And then, some of our comrades, they couldn’t survive; we were sick here. And then, we call what you call clinic, or doctor. I can tell you that doctor never diagnosed us with the right problem. He always tell you there’s nothing wrong with you, you’ll be given those medication, you’ll be given those things but there was no improvement.

Without them not knowing, in 1988, two doctors were arrested in centers and brought to Robben Island. They didn’t know those two gentlemen were doctors. And then I was assigned to go and steal (can’t understand) stethoscope-that thing they check you. I stole the stethoscope at the clinic to be in the sections so that doctors, those two gentlemen-so that before you go to the prison hospital, they know-they’ll check you and tell you, ‘ok comrade, you have the bronchitis. (can’t understand), comrades, this and that.’ So the prison doctor was worried, why are these prisoners arguing with me? I’m telling them, but they tell me what is their problem. They didn’t know.

And the doctor, Vejay Ramlakan, and (can’t understand), so Vejay Ramlakan, he became Mr. Mandela’s doctor when he was the president. And then Vejay Ramlakan, on the national television, he’s the one who announced the illness of Mr. Mandela, even when Mandela passed on. Mr. Lomo, he’s a minister of health in (can’t understand). They were here, they were prisoners on the island. Because on Robben island, that is why the island symbolized the survival of the human spirit against all odds. Without much ado’s are there any questions that you maybe want to ask?

Will Murphy: I was wondering, how did the prison hierarchy and the prison relationships transfer to the-transfer to the outside and positions of government.

Thulani Mabaso: Oh yeah, so what happened is as we were, I mentioned that we were studying, and then as we study, we had what people call career counseling. So we used to say like, me, I wanted to do something else, they say no, I must do administrative, I must do administration. Others will say, no, comrades, you must do LLB. So we had different- what do you call those guys- career counseling amongst ourselves. And then what will happen was, we studied, we had books that were smuggled, and then we studied how other countries are running their country. And then from there, amongst us, we used to assess who-this comrades can be good on this, this comrades can be on logistic, this comrades can be good on the home affairs. You know? We used to have- that is how we do it and then any study that is involved in you, is always involved amongst ourselves, it keep you from running the country. That is why we even had a constitution that we drafted here. If you look at our constitution, and the South Africa constitution, you can see that it is the similarities there.

That is why we had even structures, higher structure, middle structure, and the ground. The higher structures, those people who take opinion from the ground up, then they’ll bring it down. So we were operating like military and at the same time, like the government. So that’s what we did. And we were very much up to date, even when we inform the people from exile, when they smuggle things to us, they know that who is the person that must be contacted, not just anyone. That is why I mentioned that Mandela was always regarded as a (can’t understand).

Most of the people in that section where we come from, they were the leaders of the different organization, that is why they make it a point that they keep on updating us, the rank and file, among the rank and file we used to promote one another, because I was promoted to be political (can’t understand), so I have to be responsible for everybody around here, particularly those who belong to my organization and we recruit one another too. We recruit someone from the ANC to the PAC and then yeah, that’s how we used to-we were planning, we were planning every time, we plan. That is why our slogans were always saying, ‘we shall overcome.’ And then we even said, ‘we shall coven.’ That was always in our mouth.

Zachary Wagner: Towards the end of your story, you spoke to the survival of the human spirit, and I was wondering if there was any one person within the prison that instilled that within you?

Thulani Mabaso: Yes, there were people influence us. Particularly Nelson Mandela, Walter Sisulu, Governor (can’t understand), (can’t understand), Raymond Mhlaba. Those leaders, they were influencing us, and those leaders, they make it a point that you don’t go down. That is why we always said, ‘comrades, don’t get out of the train up until the train’s last stop.’ And that is what we are. See they inspire us. You know to be here, on Robben Island, you see we are among the leaders, so that was inspiring, you know, keep you going all the time. But there were days when people were feeling like going home, but then we always try by all means to protect you, to tell you- and to educate you, don’t be weak, be strong, don’t give up, don’t give up, stay. But some of them of course, they get lost.

Jordan Willis: How did your life here on Robben Island have an effect on your life now?

Thulani Mabaso: My time on Robben Island, let me tell you, it has a very positive and negative impact. Positively, I got educated on Robben Island, I got to be more involved and more busy with many things that I didn’t know, and got involved and in conduct with the leadership, that was one of the positive sides. And then negatively, I lost my dad even though he never committed any crime. I lost my family, my dad, and my family was in disarray. And then it affected my life, I got very ill while I was here. And then that is why even today, I’m having challenges with my health. But on other side to, I would say, today, I can do- I can able to do comparison. In my era in (can’t understand) where I stay, I can say to people, no, you are doing wrong, this is not the way to do it. This is the way to do it. You know? And then my contribution is very immense in (can’t understand). People there in my township, they always look on me. Sometimes I got too much stress-I can’t sleep because I’m worried what I’m going to say now because I’ve tried to sort this matter out, the following day another matter comes out. Then I say, well, Robben Island it played a roll, some people they look at me as their leader, they look at me that this is a man that we can rely on. That is the positive and the negative. So I’m saying the negative and the positive side.

Cyrus Kamkar: My question is: after experiencing all of this horrific stuff in this prison, what is it that motivates you to come back and tell us your stories?

Thulani Mabaso: Thank you, very good question. Let me tell you this, I remember we were busy- see outside is a big field, did you see the field there? We used to play some sports there. And then we had the news- the news was smuggled that the United States, Ronald Reagan, is going to put sanction on South Africa. And then we say, ‘if America puts sanctions, the apartheid is going to die, and then we must be released. And then we are not going to come back here.’ That’s what I said, ‘I’m not going to come back.’ Everybody, ‘no, no, no. When we leave here, we’re not going to come back here.’ Things happen. We got released ’91. 1995, Mandela want all of us here, to the reunion. And then there was a big conference. In that conference, it was said Robben Island is going to be a national monument. And the former inmates, comrades, we must share our story with people.

(Can’t understand), he was the head of the committee, to oversee that Robben Island became a museum. And then, I just said to myself, ‘that’s fine, but I’m not coming here.’ Suddenly, what was it, 2003, I got the call from the ANC office, they called to say there is a meeting you must go to in Cape town. Cape town? I don’t have money to go there. ‘No, no, no, everything is organized.’ Ok, then I came to Cape town, they put me in the house, then in the morning, ‘comrades, the boat is leaving at nine o’clock.’ ‘Where to?’ ‘Robben Island.’ ‘No, no, no, no, no. What I’m going to do?’ ‘The meeting is there.’ The name of the boat was called (can’t understand). I was sitting there, I see many people here, a few comrades I know.

At the harbor, the dock, everybody comes out. I was behind them, I was the last, and then I sit. While I was sitting, the captain of the boat came down and said, ‘Mr. Mabaso, the boat’s not going to leave, you need to come off from the boat.’ I came out slowly, I walked up, and then people were waiting for me. And then they say, ‘this group, is your group, you must just tell them, how did you survive, how did you live?’ I said, ‘what?’ You know how difficult it was? Very difficult. It was so much crying most of the time I couldn’t- you know it was so difficult then, after I finished I felt like I could just go to the sea and go back to the mainland. It was very challenging, and then I found myself here. In that meeting, in that conference, I remember Mr. Mandela said to us, ‘we need to rewrite our history, and we need to make sure that we write a new page.’ And I remember he mentioned something like the historians, historians are writing things that they feel is good for them, but if they- if we are not telling them, they will do that. So that’s why I’m here, that’s why I’m talking. But I must tell you, it’s not easy, it’s quite challenging. These memories are too emotional.

Ruby Bracher: So you said you were one of the last people out of the prison, right? How did that feel, like watching Robben Island get cleared out?

Thulani Mabaso: You know, when they used to come there, and ‘go!’ kick the doors, with a list. ‘So-and-so, so-and-so, so-and-so! Tomorrow morning you are leaving!’ You know what happened to you, your name is not called? Hey, your heart is paining, oh my goodness. Why these people? Why are we still people? That’s what questions we asked. It was very much sad when you see your comrades in the morning leaving. It was sad even for them to leave us behind. And then, I find the island very big. I said, ‘hey man, people has forgotten us.’ Fortunately, Mandela came to visit us, as a free man, and he said to us, ‘comrades, you are going to be released. There’ll be no negotiations without you.’ I said, ‘yeah! That’s good.’ And then, came back.

You know some people even say that somebody sold us out. But I believe in Mandela, I want to tell you. That man I know when he says something, that thing will happen, and it indeed- something that I don’t want to miss, you must know that, even the warders, they were white, we were able to change their mind. Some of them, they were very sympathetic to us. We kept it a secret, they were helping us. One of my good guards, I was walking and he said, ‘hey, hey.’ And I walked slowly to him and he said, ‘hey, tomorrow you are getting released, but don’t tell others.’ I said, ‘how did you know?’ ‘Ahh, we’ve got the telegram.’ I said, ‘ok, I’ll keep quiet.’ I lied to him. I lied, honestly. Because I have to- you see, the whole day, my body was- ‘oh my goodness, what am I going to’- I’m really going home tomorrow.

You know it was so hard. In the evening I said, ‘hey, comrades, I’m going home tomorrow.’ Everybody said, ‘no, no, no, no, you can’t leave us here.’ It was big, people were howling. I said, ‘no comrades, you are going to follow, don’t worry.’ I had to convince them. My good guard, I even invited him for a dinner. He said, ‘no, no, no, no, I’m not allowed to be with you, they will arrest me.’ So now- but I want to tell you I am a very good cook, he came with his family. We are still good buddies even today. We shared those things together. So on Robben Island, I’m telling you, nothing was impossible here. We changed them. And we don’t expose them. If he’s got his other colleague, you act as if he’s doing his job, but you know the man behind his mind, he’s a good guy, we had those people here.

My former guard was a good smuggler. He’d smuggle anything for us. You know the book called (can’t understand)? We had books that were not allowed to be read by any South Africans in this country, we had them here, on Robben Island, we had them. Because we use their ignorance. You know, knowledge is a power, they were very ignorant. And then, it was always happiness all the time. I remember I didn’t know the word ‘irrelevant.’ Jeff Radebe is a minister now in the president, he was my English teacher, with others. ‘Hey, what is irrelevant?’ He had to explain to me six times. Because he want to make sure that you get it right, that’s how it went. We were very much patient to help one another here, very much.

Ward Mailliard: So I have a question. Tomorrow we’re going to see Arch Bishop Tutu for a little bit, bless his heart. And he and Mandela and a number of the people decided at the end, as you mentioned, to do the truth and reconciliation council, and I’m wondering about how you feel about that process in relationship to what happened to you? And as you know, Arch Bishop Tutu was asked to lead that, and knowing that there was criticism of it because people who had committed crimes were set free. Can you say a little bit about this process of forgiveness and truth and reconciliation?

Long pause

Thulani Mabaso: You see, the process was firstly, when it was initiated while we were here, there were many of us who didn’t want it to move along with it because knowing where we come from, we wanted to have a situation whereby people go to trial, like in the Nuremberg, where people have to answer for their deeds. But because of the leadership, and their understanding and to convince us, and we started to buy-in on the idea. And then it started to work on ourselves. I personally started to work that thing in myself, so that I can able to forgive someone else. So the process was very daunting, with many challenges. But we supported it because we wanted to see a way forward for our country. It was a bitter process but we supported it. That is why millions of people never- millions of our people in this country, tortured, beaten down by those terrible men, they never appeared there. But we had very good leadership, who said, ‘let us forgive, but not to forget.’ And I will never forget. I forgive, but I will never forget. And that is why (can’t understand), many people agree with my sentiment, I still say that the truth and reconciliation was a good thing, but it didn’t go the way we expected. But to live a better life, forgive yourself, in order to forgive others. I am a forgiving person.

So, but I just wanted to say thank you very much. Thank you very much for your visit, and I wish you a well stay in my beautiful country. Things are happening but we are moving forward. We do have challenges in this country, but those challenges we are heading on. So your role- I wish your role to be is make sure that what happened to us, it must never ever happen to our future generation. Thank you very much.