Transcript of the Project Happiness Interview with His Holiness The Dalai Lama
With Students from Mount Madonna School in California, Tibetan Childrens’ Village in Dharamsala and The Creative Minds Academy in Nigeria
March 2007, Dharamsala, India
Randy Taran: Your Holiness, it is a joy to meet you. The project we’re working on is called Project Happiness. We are using your book, Ethics for the New Millennium. All these students have been working for the whole year, chapter by chapter, analyzing the book and making the links between ethics and happiness. They are working together under the guidance of three very wonderful teachers that I would love to introduce you to right now. We have Ward Mailliard from Mount Madonna School in California, who is an educational innovator, and he’s got visionary ideas about education that we are incorporating. We have Emanuel Ivorgba, a principal from Nigeria, who is a true revolutionary spreading your principles. He already has twenty-five schools in Nigeria that are studying Ethics for the New Millennium. We also have Yeshi Khando, who has done such incredible, innovative work using documentary film and internet creating the blueprint for how we are going to connect people from around the world. We feel very fortunate to have all these people putting their minds and spirits and determination together with these students. You’ll meet them. They’re quite incredible.
Dalai Lama: First of all, I welcome you here, and I really appreciate your actually trying to help to implement one of my fundamental beliefs that in order to be a happy person, or in order to lead a meaningful life, “ethics” is, in my viewpoint, realistic and very essential.
Basically we are social animals, so the social dynamics that bring us together are very essential. Our very existence, by nature is something like a social animal. An individual’s happy life or happy future depends on the rest of the community. Money also is very important. (laughter), and gifts also, but main the thing is human warm-heartedness, human affection. Affection helps us recognize others as our brother-sisters and understand that my future very much rests with them. The key element that brings us together happily is trust. How to develop trust? An honest, truthful, affectionate attitude brings trust. Trust brings harmony. Harmony brings a happier society. I’m not talking about the next life or the religious side of things. Simply put, in order to be a happier person, to have a more meaningful life, trust and harmony are the essential things.
On the other hand, fighting, quarreling, killing, to some extent, that is also part of our life in order to protect ourselves. But, basically these are destroyers of our happy society and happy individuals. Fighting, anger, hatred, creates more enemies. Love, compassion, creates more friends. Everybody loves a friend. No one wants enemies. As each day starts, nobody gets up thinking, “Oh, today I want to create an enemy.” (laughter) By our nature, from the early morning we say, “Oh, I want one friend.” That is basic human nature. Sometimes, we neglect this inner value.
When we judge various different societies, different people, we do so on the basis of honesty, compassion, and who is more harmonious, more happy. This is true, no matter what your life is like, whether there are difficulties or it is easy. The more, the human spirit is there, even though their lives are difficult, people can be happy. Lacking that, even though life is very colorful and very active; very deep inside, you can still have a very unhappy person. Have you noticed? The so-called modern education is mainly a focused on material development, and in modern education they are mainly concerned about physical level experiences of pain or pleasure. That is my viewpoint.
As a human being, I think the more profound experiences occur, not on the physical level or sensorial level, but on the mental level. At that level, affection, compassion, the sense of community, honesty, truthfulness are the key elements to counter mental unhappiness, or discomfort? So, how to further this notion, how to make a practical way to act on these ideas? I don’t know. I have no idea. (laughter). I just express. In any case, it is much easier to find faults, and more difficult to show the right answer (laughter).
In our existing education system, certainly some things are lacking, or are neglected. There is no harm in carrying on more research work to discover what we are lacking or what we need. You all are actually now starting that kind of work, so I very much appreciate you. What I think we need is more interaction right now. Any questions? Any argument? (laughter) or any criticism? Most welcome.
Student: Your Holiness, how can we cultivate the interdependence that you talk about in your book, and also be empowered to fulfill our own interests and personal goals?
Dalai Lama: Interdependency? Basically, there are two types. First, every event depends entirely on its own causes and conditions. That is one meaning of interdependency. Results depend on cause. The second type of interdependency means interconnectedness. First, I think of interdependency in the sense of the result or effect, depends upon causes. That view makes us more serious about preventive measures. We don’t want more problems in the future. Both the problems we face and the good things we want do not come as positive or negative accidentally. There must be causes.
My vision of a proper planning for the future, is just to be non-violent. That is very, very helpful. That concept gives us a more realistic way to meet the problems, which we are facing today. What is happening today has its causes, and all the conditions are fully ripened for the result to arise – to erupt in the present. Therefore we cannot avoid the results. We have to face.
The second meaning of interdependency is when something happens in one part of the world, sooner or later the repercussions reach other part of the world, particularly in the field of economics and environment. Now, the whole world is interdependent. That brings us to a more holistic view. Whenever we face some problems or seek a certain sort of goal we want to achieve, we need to understand interdependency or interconnectedness. We have to look at things in a holistic way. When some negative things happen, you can’t blame just on one localized cause. These things happened due to “this cause” and due to “that other cause.” In order to tackle the problem, we have to deal with all of the factors. In both meanings of interdependency, it is helpful to know the fuller picture. As a result, our approach will become more realistic. That is the meaning of interdependency.
Although, this concept of interdependency: the Sanskrit word for it is pratītyasamutpāda, (dependent origin or interdependence) is Buddhist concept, I feel this concept is very much relevant in any field. Sometimes I feel even those people who are very much against religion, against Buddhism, they should adopt their anti-religious activities according to pratītyasamutpāda, and become more effective! (laughter) Even though these ideas of interdependency come from Buddhism, they are very adaptable in every field. Particularly in today’s world, all people, every field are connected. Due to our increasing population and our constantly improving communications via the internet, today’s world is become smaller. We need a more holistic view. That is I think really important. Next question?
Student: How does Your Holiness think that we can end religious conflicts without removing religion from its important role in our communal life?
Dalai Lama: Firstly, those people who believe in religion should be very serious and sincere in their practice. When they are, basically all major religious tradition carry the same message. It is the message of love and compassion as well as the concepts of tolerance and forgiveness. They are in all religions. Do you see? If a person sincerely and seriously practices, when he or she comes across some problems with others who hold different views, they won’t become agitated. That is number one.
Second, we need closer contact – I think that’s very, very helpful and important. In the ancient times, I think we Tibetan Buddhists remained in our own land in isolation. Under those circumstances, whatever our attitude was toward other religions, it did not matter. In the past in Tibet there was a Muslim community, and since the beginning of 20th century, a very small number Christians there. However, the people of Tibet were generally Buddhist, so, at that time some felt Buddhism is best, and other religions were just, “so-so.” (laughter) Now, it is a different picture. We of the Tibetan community in this country (India) meet people from different traditions daily. If we carry this same sort of superior attitude around that we had in the past when we were in a completely isolated situation, then there could be a problem. So in this new situation and under these circumstances, the closer contact is very, very essential.
Now, there are different ways of addressing this. Usually, I suggest to my friends that, number one, we should be meeting scholars from different traditions on an academic level and discussing what are our similarities and what are our differences. Obviously there are differences. Usually on the practical or “practice” side of religion and spirituality we are more similar. We all have the practice of compassion and the practice of love and forgiveness. But in the philosophical aspect there are big differences. Even within the theistic religious traditions there are differences in philosophy.
Then it is important to understand the purpose of these differences of philosophy? I think it is the same purpose as practice. It is to strengthen the basic religious message of such things as love, compassion and forgiveness. To some people, it is to cultivate these deeper spiritual values in someone’s mind. The approach of certain people is a belief in a particular idea of a Creator or God, absolute. That concept is very, very powerful in cultivating in someone’s mind the importance of love and compassion. Love of God, love for our fellow human beings, like that. And, whenever we meet someone we dislike or view as an enemy, we can think of that other person that we dislike as an image of God. That kind of attitude, that kind of concept, has immense benefit in reducing hatred or anger or fear. In Buddhism, which has a non-theistic approach, there is the law of karma or law of causality, and ultimately much depends on one’s own attitude. That way of approach is more effective for some people. So, through the academic or intellectual way, we try to find similarity in our goals in order to strengthening basic human values such as compassion.
Another level to address the question of religion is meeting with genuine practitioners of different traditions. This, for me personally, is very, very effective. In this same room I had the opportunity to spend several hours with the late Thomas Merton. He was a good Christian monk. Good practitioner. As a result of my exchange and interaction with him, my understanding about the value of Christianity grew. It was not only his verbal explanation, but also his own way of life. It was also the same with the late Mother Teresa. It is the way they led their whole lives that shows us the value and potential of their beliefs. In that way, in spite of different philosophies, different way of approach, all religions have same potential to make a happier person or a good person.
Then third, there are gatherings like the Assisi meeting. The late Pope initiated that type of gathering. To ordinary people, the kind of meeting or gathering of the leaders of different religions, who then speak the same message; the message of love, the message of peace, is important. It has tremendous impact in the eyes of millions of people.
Then fourth, good pilgrimage. Go to different sacred places or holy places. And if possible, pray together. If not, do silent meditation together. I started this practice around 1975. It is for me, very useful. In this spirit, I visited, Jerusalem on pilgrimage a few times on pilgrimage. I also visited some Christian holy places in France, like Lourdes, and in Portugal, Fatima. In Jerusalem on one occasion, we all went together, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, and Hindus. At least five people from five different traditions went together and prayed, meditated together. Pilgrimage is very, very important.
I am Christian, I mean I am Buddhist (laughter). Frankly speaking, I have no faith about a creator, about God. But in Lourdes, in front of Jesus – Mary – I felt quite easily the spiritual vibrations. Then at Fatima, in Portugal, we spent a few moments in silent meditation before small Mary statue. When we were leaving, I turned back to look at the Mary statue. The Mary statue was smiling at me. Perhaps there was something wrong with my eyes. If not, then actually that small statue was smiling beautifully. Theoretically speaking, I am a non-believer. At least according to Christian belief or theistic viewpoint I am non-believer. But even as a non-believer I was receiving some kind of blessing from Mary. (laughing)
On one occasion I visited a city – I think John Main Center in England. They invited me and I stayed there three days. Each day I gave them explanation on the basis of some verses of Gospel. (laughter) It was rather a difficult job, but I tried my best to explain. Of course, before each session I did some homework (laughter) with the Catholic brother, to hear his explanation. They really enjoyed my explanation about God, about creator (laughing). Later, some of their members came to India to Bodhgaya. This was a two or three days dialogue of the type I was mentioning before. Each morning, the dialogue took place under Bodhi tree, where historically Buddha was enlightened. It is the most sacred place of Buddhism. Some Christian brothers and sisters meditated under that Bodhi tree with Buddhists. Later, some Hindus and Muslims also joined. I feel, for some people, that method of joint pilgrimage is very effective in order to develop genuine respect for other traditions, appreciation of other traditions, and admiration of other traditions.
These are the methods to develop genuine religious harmony on the basis of mutual respect, mutual admiration. Through that method we can learn from each other. It is very useful. Those are the methods to promote religious harmony. For those people who really feel harmony is important, you will utilize this method, and those people who feel differently, then let them go a different way (laughter). Next question.
Student: Your Holiness, how should we react or respond to people who deliberately hurt us or deprive us from certain rights and privileges because they feel they are more powerful than us or they think we are helpless?
Dalai Lama: Ah, this is a practical question (laughter). I think in the long run as we already discussed, we need the proper education to promote basic human values and human ethics. That ultimately is what is important in order to reduce the feeling of discrimination between all of the races, between classes of wealth, education or religion. Today, the younger generation brings a different way, a lack of these inner values. Now, the younger generation or another generation has to face and fight these problems.
Individually, as I mentioned before, when we face someone who is taking advantage of you, bullying you or discriminating against you, first perhaps focus think of that person in the image or creation of God. I think that kind of attitude and outlook helps lessens your frustrations. This will help you keep your mind more calm, and due to a calm mind you can see the situation clearly without anger and without much fear, Then you can try to take appropriate countermeasures through the law, through mobilizing other people, or sometimes you have to shout (laughter). Unfortunately, our world today is like that. It is more individualistic. There are some individuals who have more power due to political reasons or due to wealth. It is very difficult to face their injustices, but there is no point to become discouraged and there is no use to having a pessimistic attitude. We have to fight with a belief in equality. Generally speaking, God creates us all equally. Isn’t that true at least from a religious viewpoint? From another practical viewpoint all humans are the same. All have same rights.
Due to some artificial reasons discrimination exists. It is absolutely wrong. We have to make corrections to that. Generally speaking, I think if we engage in activities against inequality, it is better to do so in a non-violent way, then there is greater chance to change others’ minds. If you use violence, then other side may become more hardened. Of course, these are sad things. Even though some countries are called democratic and they say they live by the rule of law, still in some pockets many unfortunate things happen. That is sad. Next question?
Student: Your Holiness, what brings you lasting happiness? And is freedom an integral part of happiness?
Dalai Lama: Yes of course, freedom is very, very important. But not freedom alone – There are two kinds of freedom; freedom in the country and freedom in our mind. As I mentioned earlier, the calm mind is free from destructive emotions. When we have too much jealousy, too much anger, too much frustration, too much desire, attachment, then internally you have no freedom. All of these destructive emotions control your mind. So I think both internal and external freedom are very important.
I can give one small example from the Tibetan people. We are passing through a difficult period, and from time to time very sad news is coming. Many years ago, I met one Tibetan, and I asked him what he feels toward Chinese. Before he gave his answer, his face became red. His cheeks were red, like that. (laughter) He said, “Yes, I am very angry.” On the other hand, there are some Tibetans, even though they spent many years, a few at least two decades in Chinese Gulag, with a lot of problems, a lot of suffering, a lot of torture, but their mind is very calm. Some scientists at our Mind and Life meetings interviewed some of these people. Later those scientists told me this is something very remarkable. In spite of having a traumatic life of many years, still their minds are very calm.
Although both types of persons are now in a free country, in India, some still mentally are not very free. They have too much anger, too much hatred. Those Tibetans who are calm-minded are happier. Even though they may be ex-prisoners of Chinese, their minds are free from these negative, destructive emotions. As a result, these people are happier.
I myself, I don’t know (laughter) In what category am I? Maybe the middle. (laughter). I don’t know. (laughter)
Student: Thank you.
Dalai Lama: Generally, as we have already said some things happened. Very bad things have happened. Due to past mistakes, bad things are bound to happen. There is no way to escape and there is no clear reason to blame someone else. All causes and conditions became fully ripened and now we are facing their consequences. Instead of discouragement or anger, we should look at the problem in a holistic way and deal with it in a more realistic way. On the other hand, it is sometimes helpful to think “this tragedy brings us opportunity,” or “this tragedy or challenge brings us the opportunity to face adversity or handle it in a human way.” Generally speaking the Tibetan people, despite torture and other negative things, they are still quite practical, and the Tibetan spirit remains very, very firm. If there is too much anger, too much emotion, too much violence, what is the result? Both sides suffer more. More destruction will result. Next?
Student: Your Holiness, it is said that we have to experience sorrow to achieve happiness. So is it also true that to achieve the ultimate happiness, we have to experience the ultimate sorrow?
Dalai Lama: Ah, a philosopher (laughter, clapping). Yes, generally speaking, if life is spent in very easy conditions, it will sometimes spoil our basic hidden potential. I can think of one example. Generally, during the First World War, Second World War, Korean War, and Vietnam War, America was never touched. War never reached your continent. The American people were, generally speaking, very safe. Then, on September 11th, there was too much shock. I think life in America was quite easy and there was more prosperity and you never passed though many difficulties.
In contrast, earlier generations of Europeans, who went through and witnessed the First War, and the Second World War in subsequent generations, I think these people really hardened by experiences. So, small things, even some tragedies may not disturb their minds too much. Their determination and their spirit, is always high. There is an expression that says, “only suffering can really introduce you to happiness.”
Then, the second part of your question about the highest happiness – that, I don’t know (laughter). Next? (more laughter)
Student: How does Your Holiness watch over yourself so that you can carry out your duties and not lose your way?
Dalai Lama: I am not sure of your exact meaning. But generally speaking I always consider myself, including in my dreams, as a simple Buddhist monk. So the work in which I am involved with as the Dalai Lama and in representing the Tibetan people, sometimes as a Buddhist monk I have to examine whether this kind of work is suitable or not.
Up to now, in our struggle, our work is as an exiled community. Our work is first for a nation, not our own interest, but a nation. We are a nation with a long history and a rich cultural heritage. Of course materially, very backward, very poor, but spiritually, quite advanced, quite rich, and peaceful. We are a compassionate society. Generally, if you compare Tibetan society and Chinese society, Tibetan society has much more compassion. It is also much more peaceful. Our main goal or responsibility and interest is the preservation of Tibetan culture. That means Buddhism. Buddhism also is very important because it is the Tibetan way of life. Our cultural heritage very much based on Buddha Dharma or Buddhism. Therefore, our struggle, our activity, my activity is actually serving Buddha Dharma. As a Buddhist monk, my service, my involvement in any kind of work is actually for serving Buddha Dharma.
And then secondly, the basic nature of our struggle is strictly nonviolent. If violence is involved then our struggle it is questionable, and since I am a Buddhist monk, I have to ask if should I participate or not? Then also, I always tell the young Tibetans, whether agree or not or though they may have some critical view. Our approach is the Middle Way approach. That means we can’t accept that one side will go to victory and one side to defeat. It has to be mutual benefit to the Tibetans as well as to Chinese people. That is victory for both sides. In that way our effort is actually serving a billion Chinese. I always made it very clear, if our struggle becomes violent in nature, then there is no other choice for me except to resign, withdraw.
When time comes to return to Tibet, our political system should be a democratic sort of a system. We are already implementing this in India while we are living here as refugee community. So far here we have no sort of effective political parties. In future, there should be effective political parties. As a monk however, I can have no involvement in the business of political parties. This is not only for me, I always am telling monks in Himalayan regions, I prefer they should not get involved in party politics. Monks should be above politics. So, the way of my involvement, I am checking on my involvement from time to time, to see whether, as a Buddhist monk this involvement is appropriate or not. Some even suggested if a monk is elected to sort of political leadership as a monk, he should disrobe, for that means he got more freedom (laughing) Next question. Yes?
Student: Are there any questions that Your Holiness still has that you would still like to know the answer to?
Dalai Lama: Oh. One easy thing. Whether this weather will be good weather or bad weather tomorrow (laughing). Of course, as human beings, our knowledge is very limited. There are so many questions always there to which we can’t find answer.
I think in Buddhist philosophies, there are some practical questions. On many occasions I publicly express that the younger generations or younger scholars should find the answer or explanation. Otherwise, I don’t know. I don’t know.
Student: Are there any specific questions that are on your mind now?
Dalai Lama: I think about modern physics, quantum physics, and such things. I think Buddhists have thought about this over thousands of years I think there are very clear sort of ideas. Then I think about the duration of the universe. I think this sun started five billion years ago. I think according to scientists, this sun has been here for five billion years. Still another five billion to go. So that means right now we are in the middle of its life? According Buddhist literature, we are still in the early part of this eon. So there are differences. We need further research. I don’t know it is hard to say Buddhist literature mentions one thing and the modern science now gives quite clear evidence of a few millions of years differences. It doesn’t matter. But basically, I think more or less is quite clear according to astronomy. Buddhist literature says that this eon, there will a thousand Buddhas. Already, three Buddhas have come and gone – the Sakyamuna Buddha, fourth, is present Buddha. So that means still another 996 Buddhas. So, (laughing) we have to see how to reconcile these two ideas.
Now, there are things like Mount Meru. When I was in Tibet, there were some questions in my mind, but now there is no question. I do not believe in the existence of Mount Meru like that, but many Tibetan scholars still believe that. But for that I have publicly stated I have no doubt.
Then any suggestions most welcome. I think your presence or your program involves discussions from different part of the world or different people. Then we can try to make a concrete plan. That’s wonderful, very good.
On many occasions I am just expressing these ideas and it seems that many people actually agree, that the up to date education system is not complete. Time has changed. The reality has changed, so we need to make some changes in the educational system for these times. This is more or less what many people seem to agree on, or at least what they are expressing to me. So I feel we should make a change. But then, how to do make the change? I have no idea. My idea just is zero. Nothing. I have not at all been introduced to the modern education, not even a day. So just I am ignorant, hmm (laughter).
Of course I am trained in Buddhist tradition, so hopefully there is the ability to investigate, to analyze. I think my brain is not hopeless (laughing). You see, it is quite easy to see what is wrong. Do you agree? But to bring answers that is harder? I have no answer. Therefore on quite a number of occasions I have expressed that now someone should carry out serious research work in this field. Now, you are here. You are already involved in that work. I very much appreciate it. From time to time in future, if from my side, anything I can do to serve to you, I always ready. I am at your disposal. That’s all. Thank you. (Applause.)
Thank you, thank you very much. Very good, thank you. (Presenting gift to Dalai Lama.) Very kind. Okay, thank you.