Laura Ann Liswood is Secretary General of the Council of Women World Leaders, which is composed of 72 women presidents, prime ministers, and heads of government. It is the only organization in the world dedicated to women heads of state and government.
Laura Liswood – DC 2020 Transcript
May 6, 2020 via Zoom
Mount Madonna School
Ward Mailliard: Laura, welcome. Thank you so much for spending time with us today.
Laura Liswood: Well thank you, and thank you all. It’s great to see your faces—for those I can see. I assume everyone is well, I hope everyone is well. Good, I see some nods. Ok.
Ward Mailliard: We’re all excited to have this conversation with you. Do you have anything that you would like to open with? Or do you want to go right to questions? What would be your preference?
Laura Liswood: I certainly am very interested in what each of you are focused upon right now, so that’s important. You know, I think what we’re really dealing with here—and I assume that’s what we want to talk about—is leadership and leadership issues. And you know, leading in a crisis and what that means and what traits of leaders and what my observations have been in both previous interactions with particularly women leaders but now observing others as we see what’s happening in this crisis. So you know I’m really going to be curious to hear from each of you, both comments and questions, about this. I mean obviously, if we start with the premise that leading is both something that occurs in a crisis and not in a crisis time and what are the skillsets that are needed—particularly in crisis times, one could posit that the skillsets that come to the fore in a crisis, and particularly one like this which is you know agonizing for so many people and devastating for so many people—that great leaders have to show compassion, and they have to recognize what people are going through. They have to listen much better than they might historically have had to listen. They have to understand that people are living in worlds different than the world they live in.
You know, this particular crisis has really shown some of the fissures in our society and the inequalities that exist in our society. And you know I’ve started saying to people, ‘the point now is: now we know.’ I mean a lot of people knew already. Now we really do know. And the real question is: what will we do with this knowledge? And what will the leaders do with this knowledge? And how do leaders balance— I mean we’re seeing a constant balancing act going on now of this notion of economics and prosperity and getting back to the normal—whatever the heck that’s going to be. Versus the science of the pandemic itself, and what the implications of that are. So we’re seeing leaders in real time having to deal with these kinds of issues. And having to deal with what all leaders have to deal with always which is insufficient information. You’re never going to have a complete set of information. So you’re going to have to look at who do you surround yourself with? Who are the experts you’re going to listen to. How do you make the kinds of decisions that are needed? How do you balance your own intuitive sense of things versus the experiences of others? So I just—I think in the midst of all of this, this a horrifying but fascinating experience and experiment in leadership.
Ward Mailliard: Yeah, classic situation for understanding- understanding all the elements that make up leadership.
Laura Liswood: Indeed.
Oliver Mensinger: Has the COVID crisis affected the agenda of the Counsel of Women World Leaders? And do you have any conversation going on concerning the pandemic?
Laura Liswood: Nice question Oliver. Well, obviously and not surprisingly, some of the organizational meetings that we were going to have- convenings we were going to have, have had to be cancelled. And you know the real question is going to be: will the UN General Assembly— which normally holds its meetings in December in New York- will it actually go on? And that’s generally speaking where many of our World Council of Women Leaders attend, so that’s one thing.
I mean it’s been fascinating, Oliver, and I don’t know if you’ve been following this at all. And I have slight mixed feelings about it. But there’s been some articles that have been written that say what leaders have in common- the most successful leaders have in common globally about handling this pandemic. And the answer’s been: they’ve all been women. Which I just— it’s interesting because I personally am not a person who says: if you’re a woman, you’re definitely going to be a better leader. That’s just not the case. You know, because I’ve seen some pretty bad woman leaders. And woman leaders are entitled to be as mediocre as men. They’re also entitled to be as excellent as men. But I would suggest then that one of the reasons that people are sort of filtering through that is that these women leaders have demonstrating quite openly the notion that I was talking about, which is the compassion, the listening, the understanding of what people are going through. Ironically, in the case of Angela Merkle, now we see what happens when you have a scientist as a leader. You know she’s just totally fact-based about things, which is very interesting.
But you know also, Oliver, I’m a big proponent of understanding and flexing your leadership style. Because if you say there’re several leadership styles overall on the spectrum. Some leadership styles that go from one end of the spectrum that would be considered command and control style. Sort of the military if you will command and control style. Where, you know, you’re decisive, you’re making all the decisions, you’re doing it sort of singularly. You’re seeing this with some of the authoritarian governments doing that currently. So you have this command and control style. And then the other end of the spectrum is considered the consensus oriented style. You bring other people into the decisions, you ask other people, you bring your experts in. There has been basic theories that dominant groups are quite good at command and control, and non-dominant groups are better at the consensus oriented. Which just so happens to overlay basically on gender. Males have historically been more of the dominant group, females have historically been more of the non-dominant group. So I think we’ve had a tendency to think ‘oh, that must be the genders are that way.’ Nah, it’s probably more the social position of dominant groups and non-dominant groups.
But my point is that the best leaders are those that have both command and control capabilities and consensus capabilities. The example I use is that it’s a good leader who in a non-crisis kind of situation says ‘I’d like to hear from you, I’d like to hear from you, I’d like to hear from Oliver, I’d like to hear from Rachel, I’d like to hear from Connor,’ you know, ‘I’d like to hear from Celia, I want to hear from all of you because you have good ideas and good cognitive diversity and I want to hear those ideas.’ Ok, that’s good, and that’s very valuable. But, Oliver, if the building is burning, do you want me to say, ‘I really want to hear from Sara, then let’s hear from Violet, then let’s hear from Cory, about what door we should go out. You know maybe we should go out door A, but I don’t know. I don’t know Shannon, what do you think? Or maybe we should go out door B, Octavio. Let’s think about door C’ ? You don’t want me to do that. You want me to say ‘go out door A now.’ Right? So you can see where there’s- that the best leaders have all of those tools in their toolbox.
So long answer; great question.
Oliver Mensinger: Thank you.
Sarah Vince: In an interview with Mount Madonna School in 2018, you spoke about how there is an inequality in leader diversity because of leader archetypes. Is it possible in the COVID crisis that instead of this being the crumbling cliff situation that you mentioned to us in 2018, that the fact of woman led countries having a better response to COVID-19 could be an opportunity to help create new archetypes?
Laura Liswood: Well, you know, as sometimes you hear people say ‘from your lips to God’s ears’. You know, it’s possible. We can be aspirational about that idea. That overtime, when people you know have the opportunity to research how leaders reacted to these kinds of things. When academics, or people like yourselves, who are great thinkers; come back and look at what was done. And then we add to the discipline of understanding of what leadership is. You know that could have the potential for the long-term archetypal shifts that you’re talking about.
You know, so I’m hopeful. What we’re seeing. And we’re seeing it at all different levels. What’s kind of interesting now also is you know, I don’t know- I’m sure Sarah you watch the news a lot. But what’s interesting is that you’re seeing a lot more governors, like in the United States. You’re seeing mayors of other countries. And they’re far more diverse than basically the heads of state are. So I think that’s a really interesting phenomenon too. That that could potentially shift people’s orientation about ‘think male, think leader’ kind of thing. Because now we’re seeing these leaderships at all different levels. We’re seeing doctors who are being interviewed. And you know the diversity of the kind of doctors who are being interviewed is really stunning.
And I just wrote- I just wrote an article, Sarah. Ward I should probably send it to you, it just got published yesterday in the World Economic Forum. And one of the things I thought this crisis is showing, is the negative consequence of having gender segregated roles. You know, what I mean by that for example, let’s take Japan. I used that as an example. OSCD data on Japan. Only 20% of doctors in Japan are women. That can be cultural, legal, whatever. Who knows all the different reasons why only 20% of doctors in Japan are women. Now think about that. Think about the absolute essential need to have a lot of doctors. And now you’ve got this artificial lid on women’s participation as doctors. So you know we get this really bizarre consequence of having these gender segregated roles. You know, think about law enforcement, think about fire persons, think about all sorts of- or the flip, think about the grocery worker, the day-care worker, the nurses; they’re in gender segregated roles too.
So I think that what this is really showing is it really does begin to show the schisms in our society in these differing- as I call them- the differing archetypes that we have. And the danger of having these differing archetypes. Good question.
Sarah Vince: Thank you.
Savannah Cambell: Hi. In a Forbes magazine, you said, “because women are allowed to make one mistake while the man is allowed to make many more; and when a man says ‘I don’t know’, it’s perceived as authentic leadership, when a woman says ‘I don’t know’, it’s perceived as a weakness and incompetence.” I’ve been thinking about this quote a lot and trying to grasp the whole picture. Do you think it’s possible for people to understand, both men and women, if men are gaining an advantage in claiming leadership positions because of this kind of bias that everyone is losing because we are failing to bring women into leadership roles that they are qualified to hold?
Laura Liswood: You know one of the things that’s always funny for me is to hear myself be quoted back. It’s like ‘oh my God, did I really say that?’ I appreciate your attention to what I did say. Look at it, anytime we are not using the full potential of human, you know, the globe of humans; we are losing out, right? And that’s not just for women. That’s for other historically underrepresented groups. So and every time we have an inequality, we lose out. I mean again, this is where I get back to this ‘now we know’. Now we have a full and complete understanding that in the United States at least, African Americans are getting disproportionality hit by this crisis, right? Ok, now we know. I mean not that a lot of people didn’t already now. But this has really come to the forefront.
So anytime we are disadvantaging any group, for any reason, we have this problem. We’re losing out on the potential of who can make the next discovery, who can be the next doctor, whatever it is. I still think we- I mean we have seen unfortunately with this administration, a little bit- not a little bit- a disproportionate treating of one of the woman governors in the country. Which unfortunately, still replicates what you and I are talking about, right? Her mistakes are being exaggerated, her positions- a man who was doing those kinds of things wouldn’t have that kind of thing. So you know, do I hope it will change? Do I hope some of this will ease up in terms of these unconscious biases, unconscious archetypes that we have about people? Unconscious interactions? I do. Do I think it’s going to be magical? No. I don’t think this is the cure-all for that. Do I think, for example, that there is the potential for shifting people’s attitudes towards child care at home, taking care of children at home. We are seeing a lot more men doing that. Which is terrific. They’re probably also a little more aware of what it takes to have children at home. And I think that countries, for example, that have implemented paternity leave, have seen clear shifts in responsibilities and roles because those disproportionate roles that you reference, do hinder women, they hold back women.
So I’m hopeful, you know. The parallel to that- and neither you nor I were there. But the parallel to that is what happened in World War II. In World War II, you’ve read I’m sure, all the men were- it was also some women, but mostly it was men who went off to war and the women were then brought out to do the manufacturing and the Rosie the Riveter kind of poster you’ve seen. And that was actually, even though there was kind of a conservative wave that occurred after the war into the ‘50s, that actually did unleash women working more fully into the workplace. So you know it’s a little bit of a longer arc than we know exactly what’s going to happen. But I think this has the potential for having that similar kind of arc.
Ward Mailliard: Interesting. So hold back anybody, hold back the whole system. Basically.
Laura Liswood: Yeah, right. I love it.
Tabitha Hardin-Zollo: In an article for the WE Forum in December, 2018, you wrote, “then there is the scrutiny that comes from women holding power. They continue to face unconscious bias, sexual harassment, discrimination, higher expectations, and micro-aggressions. Small but steady erosions of their authority.” How do you persevere and keep your confidence when you are constantly facing these things that chip away at you?
Laura Liswood: That’s a good question. It’s a good question for you and all the women and men on this call. First and foremost, if you remember, when I talked to you before, I don’t know if you remember I told you Howard Gardeners research on leadership and the four traits of leadership that Howard Gardener referenced. Do you remember those?
Ward Mailliard: Yeah we plugged it into a question.
Laura Liswood: Oh you plugged it- ok well part of that is, if you remember, that true north. Right? Whatever it is you believe. Whatever it is you think should be done. That is the right thing to do. Whatever it is you’re passionate about in terms of your own leadership. That’s what you focus on. All this other stuff in a funny sort of way is noise. When somebody criticizes you and gives you this you know ‘you couldn’t be a leader’ or whatever. As you know Tabby, that’s their problem not yours. Right? That’s their attitude, not your attitude. So one of the things I’ve observed of all good leaders, but particularly because it does happen to women disproportionately, is that they figure out what it is they want to do, why it is their doing it, what’s important to them, why they’re trying to help their society, whatever. And then all of this other stuff just becomes background to them. Obviously, you know, in personal conversations with some of them, they’re irritated about it. And better to be irritated about it then take it in and say ‘what’s the matter with me?’ Because it’s not about you. You know how good you are. If you’ve honed your skillsets, if you’ve honed your ability to speak, if you’ve honed your ability to create ideas in a way that people can hear them? If you have ideas, then that’s it. Then you have the capacity to be a leader.
You know I think I’ve told you when I was a police officer, I used to get all this crap and whatever. And finally I used to say to people when they would do all that kind of stuff, I just kept saying you know ‘really? Is that the best you’ve got? Can’t you think of something more creative than that?’ So you just kind of push it back. It’s not easy developing- you will over time, and that just takes practice. Just being in front of people. Having people support you, having people criticize you. Just practicing that and coming up with your lines: ‘is this the best you got?’
Ward Mailliard: Beautiful. Let’s- Sammy, let’s- with the context that we just had, let’s ask your question and see if there’s a little more to gain from this. You want to give it a shot Sammy?
Sammy: Hi, I’m Sammy. In a 2018 interview with Mount Madonna, you listed traits of a good leader from Howard Gardener. A true north, a willingness to challenge authority, capability to communicate ideas, and being travelled. Can you speak from your experiences about these traits and how you have seen them manifest?
Laura Liswood: Yeah, well, you guys did capture that. Well, for myself and for others that I’ve observed, you know having that true north- it takes time to figure out what your value system is. It takes time, it does take some courage. So for example, are you one of the ones where if you’re in a situation Sammy, if someone said something that seemed racist to you, right? You know, just whatever, a casual conversation. And it happened to be a group of your friends, let’s say; make it even harder, who said something. What do you do? Do you go along with it?
Sammy: I’d probably call them out to be honest.
Laura Liswood: Good. Then that just told me what one of your true north positions is, that you’d probably call them out on it. Let’s hope you would do that kind of thing. But some people wouldn’t necessarily at one point do that. So you have that moral compass around that particular issue. And you don’t know what your moral compass is until it’s been tested. Because we can all say we have virtue and we have all these moral belief systems. Until their tested you just don’t know what you have. But that’s an example that tested you and you responded. So having that moral compass is a good one. And I’m not perfect at that by any means. There’ll be times when I- I think for me, there are times when I agreed with something, when what I should have said, Sammy, is ‘let me think about it’. You know, because I might have agreed to it and thought about something later in particular that didn’t fit with my morality. And then I had to go back to do something. So I’ve had to learn to hit the pause button a few times rather than just react immediately.
And again, you know I’ve discovered women of high moral character, I’ve discovered men of high moral character. And again, you only know that by their actions. You only know that by their actions. Their words are one thing but their actions are really something else. And so I think- (cat meows) sorry, cat. This is Mao.
Ward Mailliard: Isn’t it amazing how cats tend to like to come around and be shown off. A lot of the students have their cats showing up from time to time.
Laura Liswood: Yeah, Mao- Adobe, the other ones, conked out at the moment. But at some point he’ll probably get up and want attention. So I’m sorry, had you asked about the other parts around morality, or all three- four of the elements?
Sammy: Just all four, but you don’t have to answer all of them.
Laura Liswood: I suspect that you know, in terms of challenging authority, because my career over the last 15 years or so hasn’t been structured within a corporation all that much. Although I spent a good portion as a senior advisor to Goldman Sacks. But the challenging authority that I seemingly do is the stuff that we’re doing here: putting in your minds ideas that may go differently than what society’s currently suggesting. So I think that’s how I do my challenging.
Now in terms of speaking and articulating ideas: that’s what I do for a living. And how did I get there? Practice, practice, practice. I just have been speaking for a long time, I’ve learned to a certain extent what works and what doesn’t work in terms of speaking. And I’ve practiced so long, I’m rarely nervous per se. Sometimes I’m intrigued by some new idea that I might have that may be completely screwed up, but I’m rarely nervous. So I’ve been able to learn to convey my ideas really, I think as effectively as I can do them.
And the travelling. You know I continue to do that. Not just the physical as we remember Sammy. It’s not just traveling to a foreign country, it’s also traveling outside of your world view. So for example, I’m reading a book right now called White Fragility, which is about racism in the United States and how white people basically react to that and how you know, for black people it seems like they can’t confront white people on racism because of the reaction that white people have to having these kinds of discussions. And you know, because I can only travel so far into being a black person, an African American person, I can only do a sort of non-dominant sense of what they experience. I just don’t know their perceptions and what they think about things unless I can read about them, unless I can have honest conversations about that. So you know I’m continuing to learn. I’m trying to continue to travel outside of my world view.
Let me ask you, Sammy. How do you do it? How do you- ok, you’re a great guy, I’m sure. How do you travel to understanding what other people are going through?
Sammy: I don’t know. This is going to sound kind of stupid, but I guess social media. Because like, I don’t know, there are all kinds of people all over the world on social media. There’s a lot of people like me, and there’s a lot of people worse off than me, there’s a lot of people better off than me. And it’s just a way to, I guess, get everything.
Laura Liswood: Ok, that’s legitimate. That’s one of the ways. Ward, I’d like to hear from some others as to how they travel. That would be intriguing to me, so if anybody would be willing to raise their hand.
Tabitha Hardin-Zollo: I think for me it’s kind of like you said, reading books and articles from other points of views. I like to read autobiographies and biographies of people. Specifically autobiographies because you really get to see their perspective on issues that matter to me. So I guess people able to, in a sense, step into people’s shoes and see the world the way they see it. And maybe I don’t always agree with it, maybe I don’t agree with it at all. But I can at least see where they’re coming from and have a greater respect for their point of view.
Laura Liswood: Great. Good, yeah that’s a good one.
Connor Murphy: I- as weird as it sounds, I tend to watch Fox News because I’m really interested in media confirmation bias and the kind of bubble that creates. And it’s only through experiencing news media that I normally wouldn’t watch can I understand people who only watch that and who only have that narrative. So that’s how I kind of step out. I look at that kind of media.
Laura Liswood: Yeah. I’ve got to tell you Connor, you’re a better person than me.
Sarah Vince: I think listening to people a lot. Like I have travelled a lot with my family and so I lived in Europe for a bit and I’ve been going to India since I was very young and so I have a lot of connections with people in different continents and different countries and I like just kind of listening to what’s going on in their lives and what they’re- what’s happening with them. I like hearing different perspectives. I’m in a- I’m a competitive horse-rider so I’m in a sport where I’m surrounded by a lot of undocumented immigrants that I’m very close with and I like hearing their perspectives on what’s going on and helping- it helps me to kind of sympathize with their ideas. And just listening to different opinions. Because I don’t really like talking very much- I get really nervous talking. You might hear the quiver in my voice right now. But just observing and listening to other people has always been kind of very fun to me and interesting.
Laura Liswood: Let me also mirror that back to you. Number one: I didn’t hear a quiver in your voice. Number two: if you hadn’t spoken up, we would’ve all been deprived of that which you just said. Right? So that which was in your head would’ve never come out. And who knows who you will have potentially influenced in this conversation. I’m just trying to encourage you to understand the power of your voice and your perspective on things.
(can’t understand) now I’m going to torture you. Do you have like a favorite question that you use? Or how you get people to open up?
Sarah Vince: For me I just like listening and trying to understand them. I don’t ask that many questions because I find that like- I like listening to their interactions with other people a lot too. So I just watch how they respond to other people. And I don’t have a specific question I ask to everybody. And then I actually got- my riding trainer is a man from Sweden and he also has trouble talking to people, so he gave me this advice it’s like: whatever their last sentence was, ask them a question about that.
Laura Liswood: That’s a darn good- that’s a darn good answer. You have more reportorial, you like to be a reporter in that sense. You like to be listening to other people. Great skill.
Ward Mailliard: Anybody else want to jump on this?
Laura Liswood: This is fun for me, I’m having a good time.
Ward Mailliard: I will say, we actually physically travel too. I took the seniors that are here went to South Africa with me last year. And we interviewed Mamphela Ramphele, and a former prisoner from Robben Island, and who else did we talk to? Someone from the Truth and Reconciliation Council. And so that is a way of being in other contexts and next year, assuming we can travel, the seniors- those who will be seniors next year will go to India.
Laura Liswood: Fantastic.
Ward Mailliard: Yeah so put them in contexts outside their own which is basically what your saying. But it’s a total immersion experience.
Laura Liswood: Oh gosh. Well and it’s also because the norms of that culture are not necessarily the norms that you’re used to. The patterns, the ways of life, the experiences people have. You kind of have to stand everything that you knew in a way right? I mean you have to look at the world with new eyes in that sense.
Ward Mailliard: Anybody want to spring board that was in South Africa in relationship to what we’re talking about as to the impact of experiencing a different world or consciousness or culture?
Laura Liswood: Yeah, I’d love to hear more, that sounds fabulous.
Ksenia Medvedev: Well funnily- I don’t know if that’s a word- but funny enough, our- the word that we chose as our kind of motto- because we choose a word every trip that every class takes chooses a word to kind of represent or symbolize what they want to get out of the trip or like what kind of a central theme that the trip is structured around. And our trip was Umbono, which means ‘perspective’ in one of the native languages there. And I think we all gained a lot of perspective on how- how even though they are halfway across the world, we have a lot of things in common with them. And I think we were all really shocked by how open they were in welcoming us and trying to build connections just like instantly. And like it’s almost everyone you meet there in South Africa really welcomes you with open arms and doesn’t really view you as like anyone different even though you’re from America and you probably have really different experiences from the people there. But I don’t know, it was just kind of- I did gain a new perspective and yeah, I don’t know, it kind of made me reevaluate the way I look at the world and ever since then I’ve kind of been trying to incorporate their values into my life and being more open. And now going to college, like I’m a senior so I’m going to college next year; I hope to kind of bring that openness with me and be able to make connections with people quickly just from being so open and so willing to share. So yeah.
Laura Liswood: Terrific. Well it sounds like not only was it perspective which you got which is fabulous, but it seems like everyone suspended pre-judgement. If we all- the American go into it with certain pre-judgements, and the South African could have done the same. But you know it seemed like on both sides there was this openness to understanding which is terrific. I was thinking also while you were talking; I read this study, it sounds a little off but actually quite pointed to this. About what happens when husbands and wives go to take the Haj. You know what the Haj is everybody?
Ward Mailliard: Yeah.
Laura Liswood: Ok, good. Now they often come from countries where there are strict gender norms. Very strict gender norms about what men’s roles are what women’s roles are, etc. But the Haj forces people to- because they’re traveling to an entirely different country, to an entirely different world, to entirely different sort of ways of getting through this process of the Haj. That the men actually start to gain more respect for the women’s opinions on things. Because the men don’t know any more than the women do about these things. You know, so it has leveled in a funny sort of way leveled their playing field and removed the cultural restrictions that they’ve had. And so I always think about that when I think about what impact does this kind of thing have on people? It really does force people to suspend all sorts of thing. And you sound like you know, people maybe already didn’t have pre-conceived notions, but certainly when you came in you were very open about what you were going to learn. And now I hear you’re going to carry that with you. So that sounds to me, in Howard Gardeners language, a true north element that you’ve now incorporated into your own personality, your own leadership. So terrific.
Ward Mailliard: I call that, Laura, meeting people in positive regard. And I’ve discovered in my career how powerful it is when we meet each other in positive regard. Exactly what you said. And Rowan I saw your hand, and then let’s get back to questions. Go ahead Rowan.
Rowan Davenport-Smith: One of the meetings in South Africa that we had that I think hit everyone the same was with the Director of the Aids Orphanage Botshabelo which was nearing the end of the trip and she went my Mgogo and she made every single one of us cry. Because at that time we’d been seeing a lot of poverty and we’d been hearing a lot about Appartheid and a lot of horrible things happening. And so we were feeling really bad about our privilege and about how little we’ve done. And she came to us and said ‘it’s ok for you to have your own problems, and it’s ok to feel bad, but you shouldn’t compare your problems with theirs. You all go through things.’ That’s something that I carry with me because I think I’ve kind of been raised to think that I’m not allowed to feel bad about my situation because I’m white, I have a good home, because I have money. That is something that I carry with me and I think that’s something a lot of people who went to South Africa really appreciated what she said.
Laura Liswood: Yeah I can see that. And I appreciate the fact that you have a self-awareness of your position in life. And doesn’t that lead you to think about how you’re going to leverage that position in life to help others? I would think that that would be an immediate kind of response to what you described in that because you are you know, what’s that phrase? If you’re giving back so much (can’t understand), someone tell me what the phrase is. But- and you know, I don’t know if I should say this but I’m taking the Yale course on happiness. (can’t understand) is doing it. Have any of you heard about this thing?
Ward Mailliard: Yeah, there’ve been a number: Harvard had one. And we actually did- our first trip to India was called Project Happiness and we interviewed the Dalai Lama about what is the nature of lasting happiness.
Laura Liswood: Oh my God. And? Can you give me the cliff notes version of it?
Ward Mailliard: I’ll give you the cliff notes. We spent a year studying and interviewing all kinds of people about what is their notion of lasting happiness because it’s in Dalai Lama’s book: Ethics for the New Millennium. So we finally get to the Dalai Lama, and we’re in there, it’s just my class and a few kids we picked up from the Tibetan Children’s Village, and some other kids that had come from Nigeria. And so we finally get to the big question: what is lasting- what creates lasting happiness? So the Dalai Lama talks a little bit about the elements of happiness and so on, and then he gets to the- he gets to the end of that and he says, ‘for me? I don’t know. Next question.’ Perfect answer. Figure it out.
Laura Liswood: Figure it out. Yeah.
Ward Mailliard: Well, let’s go on to Cece.
Cecilia Rothman Salado: Hi. So in your interview with Mount Madonna School in 2018, you mentioned the shower questions, and that was a seminal moment for you over 20 years ago in which you asked the question ‘what would it be like to have a woman president of the United States?’ And that led you to where you are today. I’m curious what events and experiences in your life might have led up to that singular moment.
Laura Liswood: Gosh. Interesting question, because I don’t know if your mind meanders, but mine does into all different places. So I can’t quite give you a sense of the specificity of that. It sort of- things build on each other, don’t they? One set of experiences build on each other, and then another set, and then you’re influenced by what you’re seeing or reading or hearing. And then you’re putting it together and that’s another combination of thoughts. And it just keeps going like that. That’s what I- I certainly feel like I’m a synthesizer of ideas, you know. And I build on the synthesis of it. Which I think, I hope, comes from trying to absorb as much differing information as I can, trying to understand different things, trying to ask questions. You know, the article I just (can’t understand) came out yesterday. It really was a thought process around what does this whole pandemic mean for diversity and inclusion? Is it going to advance it? Or cause it to fall backwards in terms of people’s priorities? Because that’s kind of the frame of reference.
And I’m very experiential about a lot of things. Cece, I’ll go back and think about what you all just said to me, you know. And ok how does that inform what I’m thinking about? So I don’t have a sort of fixed set of ideas and ‘aha, next in the shower question’. I don’t know, where do you get your ideas from? I’m always curious.
Cecilia Rothman Salado: Gosh, I don’t even- probably my friends and my family, just the people that I surround myself with.
Laura Liswood: Yeah, and your everyday experiences I’m sure.
Laura Liswood: You know Tabby, I was thinking about what you were talking about how you sometimes struggle with things. So here’s one that I struggle with a lot. You know I was a police officer, right? And my father was a police officer. And I have an understanding of both the flaws and heroism of being a police officer. And I also have some- I can’t understand completely- but I have some understanding of the anger that comes from Black Lives Matter. And all of what that means. Right? Which is clearly you know, targeted to law enforcement. And the challenge is for me Tabby, and I don’t know how to reconcile this completely, is that I think I can understand the dynamics of both. And I can’t always reconcile. You see what I’m saying Tabby? I can’t always reconcile these two things. Because I have been on the street where you know, and I don’t want to get dramatic about it- but I’ve been on the street where I, or my partner, are potentially in danger. And I’ve also been on the street and seen what happens sometimes, tragically- I haven’t seen one specifically you know around a death, but I’ve seen a disproportionate interaction between a police officer and for example, a black man. So I’ve seen both. And everybody wants to categorize you: you’re either for the police or against the police. And I’m- I can’t categorize myself, I struggle with that. Just like you were describing, how you kind of struggle with things. And you know, I don’t know- I’m not asking (can’t understand), I’m just saying these moral dilemmas are just really complex. At least as I’ve experienced them.
AnMei Dasbach-Prisk: Hi, my name is AnMei.
Laura Liswood: Hi AnMei.
AnMei Dasbach-Prisk: I’m someone who loves to ask questions, but I often find myself overstepping boundaries in my pursuit for knowledge; I have to work on my vocabulary a little bit. As a person who has interviewed so many world leaders, what are the qualities that you think a good leader should exemplify that you’ve learned along the way?
Laura Liswood: Yeah, that’s a good question. A perfectly good question, you didn’t overstep anything on that one. You know, I assume that if you do overstep on a question- and overstepping incidentally is very culturally based. Right? You know because Rowan was describing how the people- no, it wasn’t Rowan. Was it Cece maybe? Sorry. Was describing how open the South Africans were about things and probably some of the questions they ask. And I’m always astounded when I go into some countries and they’ll ask questions and you go ‘what? Did you just ask about my personal relationships in a very detailed way and we just met each other?’ You know so my own cultural boundaries get shifted and so I think that probably often might be what’s happening to you. You have a certain set of cultural norms about what you ask and somebody else’s boundaries are different than yours. Doesn’t make you bad or wrong, just makes you differing boundaries. So incidentally, I’m always suggesting you air to the side of asking. You know obviously you don’t ask, you do have some personal notion of space. But asking a question, being curious is a real sign of a leader. Just showing curiosity about things.
You know one of the things that I did do, and I don’t know if I described this process to you when I talked to you last time, was that I ended up thinking about ok, I want to ask all these questions of these leaders; I mean I just have a ton of them. But I knew that I was potentially only going to have an hour with each of them. So I had to really use my time carefully. So first and foremost, I went to actually someone like Sarah, who’s going to be a reporter in life, so say of these questions, are there ways that you can combine them? Are there ways to duplicate them? Whatever. So I was able to get rid of a lot of questions. And then, the next sort of iteration of it was: what am I going to ask that isn’t already known sort of in the public sphere? That isn’t in a book already. That isn’t in a documentary. That I can ask in a way that’s going to generate a new set of ideas from that person. And in truth, again, I asked a really (can’t understand) a reporter to help me think about those kinds of questions. You know so I was pretty conscious about this, and it was a pretty conscious preparation. Now just off the top of your head you know you’re not going to be doing that kind of thing. But if you get into a situation like I have where you’re interviewing someone or you want to glean as much as you can from someone, then you’re going to take a little more preparation time to do that. And you know ask other people, get some advice about some of these things. But don’t stop asking questions.
Sara Bautista: Alright, so my name is Sara. And in a WE Forum article you said, “failure must energize us to clamor more for progress.” I notice that I am often afraid to take risks and step out of my comfort zone for fear of failure. What advice or experience do you have to encourage someone to keep taking chances?
Laura Liswood: Yeah, sure. I want to hear- I know what I’m going to say, I want to hear what you all are saying. Well, I mean Sara, are you so risk-adverse that you don’t get out of your comfort zone ever?
Sara Bautista: No, but I often like find myself thinking back to times where I didn’t do something and then I kind of regret it because I realize this could’ve been something that I really enjoyed and I didn’t. And I often find myself not doing things because of previous experiences I’ve had where I haven’t had the best experience.
Laura Liswood: Yeah, look, what you just described is a human being. You’re human. Because we’re all to a certain extent risk adverse. And some of us who are recklessly not risk adverse you know, for example, riding your motorcycle without a helmet, that’s a risk I don’t think you should take. But if you can say that- if you can flip it and say not ‘what’s this failure about?’ But ‘what did I learn from this? What did I learn about myself from this?’ And you know, every one of us, I’ll bet you, I’ll bet you Sara, you can list off all the things you articulate as failures. And then if I ask you ‘tell me Sara, what are all your successes?’ You probably don’t have as many on top of the mind. Because we all over emphasize our failures and under emphasize our successes. So one of the things is make sure you remind yourself that you have lots of successes, and that you do have the ability to handle difficult situations, or situations that you’ve done it. You’ve done it, but you’re just so focused on the ones that you fear so much, that you maybe paralyze yourself into doing it.
So I would just suggest you say ‘what did I learn from doing this? What more do I want to do around this?’ You know I was completely fearful of- well I think I told you all this story of me bicycling across Siberia. You’re nodding your head, because you know that was pretty stupid. Anyway, I was constantly fearful, I mean constantly fearful. You are riding in a place that you have no idea. I could read a (can’t understand) alphabet but I thought to myself I have no idea what it meant. No directions. You’re riding in Siberia, that’s where all the gulags are. I think I told you that what I ended up having to do because the fear was so exhausting me, you can’t ride for 10 hours and be exhausted. That I just said, I’m going to- I’m feeling this fear, and I’m going to take it, and I’m going to put it in my backpack, my (can’t understand), for- first I started with one hour, then I’m going to take it back out and look at it. Is it still there? Yes, no, maybe. I’m going to put it back in, I’m going to take it out in two hours. Incidentally, I would reward myself with an M&M each time I did this. I brought one bag of M&Ms with me to Siberia, I wish I’d brought like 20. I gave myself a reward every time I did that.
So I would- if you could do that, if you could compartmentalize and say ‘ok, I get it, this is a fear, I’m going to put it over here for now. I’m going to do something, and then I’m going to go back and look at it.’ And of course we all know, your fears of jumping off an unknown cliff into a shallow pond of water you know, we really should have a legitimate fear. Most of our fears are just internal to our heads. So just the very fact that you asked the question tells me that you have a pretty good handle on your fears actually.
Sara Bautista: Thank you.
Ward Mailliard: I wish we had another hour because we have at least another hour’s worth of questions. But we need to respect your time. But I like to have a little bit of feedback from the students about what they heard that meant something to them.
Laura Liswood: Oh hands.
Ward Mailliard: I know, look at that. Haley. I want to start with people we maybe haven’t heard from as much. Haley, go ahead.
Haley Kerr: I really liked specifically when you were talking about how if you don’t speak, other people don’t get the opportunity to hear what you are saying, and you don’t get the opportunity to say it to them. Because I think I definitely hold back sometimes when talking, I’m a little bit shyer in that aspect. But there are times when I think back on it and think ‘I should’ve just said it’. So that’s one thing. And then also I just want to thank you for first of all talking to us, but also using people’s names. Because I think it’s hard over zoom specifically to feel that connection with people, and just the fact that you said our names back to us and kept coming back and remembering who said what, I think that helps it feel a lot more connected, so thank you for doing that.
Laura Liswood: Well, thank you for that. You know one of the things- and maybe Sarah, this can be for you too- you know, let’s just say you aren’t speaking about something, but you’re good friend Savannah over there knows that you have something to say, because she knows you well and she knows that you know this topic. You know, then I would suggest that Savannah could say, ‘so look at it, I think Haley has some really good ideas about this.’ That’s called being a wingman, a wing-person. Right? So you can be people’s wing-person and other people can be your wing-person. You know, and Sarah, same with you. You can have a wing-person that says ‘I think you can do this.’ You know, ‘I know you can do this, I’ve seen you behave in this way; in ways where you overcome your fears.’ So it’s good to have wing-people around you also, inviting you to speak you. And then you do it for them too.
And thank you for complimenting- it’s much more fun to call people by their names. If you remember in 2018, I forced everybody to (can’t understand).
Ward Mailliard: Ok, let’s see, who else? Aaron I saw your hand, go ahead.
Aaran Saavedra: Hi, I’m Aaron. Something that struck me was when you mentioned the image of the three swimmers and how the person in third place appeared to be the happiest out of all of them even though they were technically last out of those three. Because I think that the idea that happiness is relative is extremely true and something that’s important to realize. And I also appreciate how you inquired about how we felt, and what we thought, because I think that just helps us connect, and it also helps us to think when we’re actually asking questions. I really appreciated that.
Laura Liswood: Thanks, Aaron. Let me give you one more thing on this happiness which struck me. Not only do we have this silver medal kind of issue, but then she poses the questions- or researches pose the question: would you rather make $50,000 if everyone else made $25,000 around you, or would you rather make $100,000 and everyone around you made $250,000? Get the framing? You make $50,000 and everyone else makes $25,000; you make $100,000, and everyone else makes $250,000. And what percentage of people said they’d rather have the $50,000 when everyone else makes $25,000? 55%. So not only is it relative that way, but I don’t want you to be as happy as me. So I like that one too Aaron.
Ward Mailliard: Alright let’s keep moving. Oliver.
Oliver Mensinger: Haley kind of said this already but I liked how you kind of interacted with each and every one of us, even the ones who didn’t ask a question. You said everyone’s names, you connected with everyone. That was really, really cool. And some of the analogies you brought up were really nice. That was great.
Laura Liswood: Well you know take- you know what that felt like. So now you take this on and you do it too. I’m sure you’re in situations Oliver, where you can sort of mimic this approach; bring other people into the conversation. Because you know how it felt. And you know how it feels for me. I like it.
Ward Mailliard: Rowan.
Rowan Davenport-Smith: First of all, I like your cat, I also have mine with me.
Laura Liswood: What’s yours’ name?
Rowan Davenport-Smith: This is Benny. But I’m the kind of person that’s very introverted and I don’t talk a lot in small groups. But if you put me on a stage in front of thousands of people, I will be completely fine. And you said earlier that in response to people trying to chip at your confidence and your perseverance you said ‘really? Is that all you’ve got?’ And that’s just something that I kind of aspire to be when I’m not in those on-stage areas. Because I kind of get upset with myself because I know I have the confidence to talk to people, but when I’m in smaller groups, it just disappears. And so that is just something I aspire to be. To be like ‘really? Is that all you’ve got?’
Laura Liswood: And what is it about being in that more intimate circle that makes you more hesitant to talk? I’m curious because the same kind of happens to me too.
Rowan Davenport-Smith: I don’t know really. Maybe it’s just because like I can see like the reactions and I can see like- yeah I can see the reactions and I’m more focused on each person in the group. Like in a crowd, like there’s not one single person that I’m worried about. It’s just like this one big blob and I’m just speaking out.
Laura Liswood: Yeah, that makes sense, I get that. Ok.
Ward Mailliard: Ok, let’s see. I saw Sarah Vince, you were eager.
Sarah Vince: Yeah, I just wanted to thank you (audio cuts out) listening to us and for really respecting our opinions and our questions and for responding so deeply to them and I just want to thank you for your time and consideration for that. So thank you.
Laura Liswood: Thank you for speaking up again, I appreciate that.
Ward Mailliard: Anyone else out there? Any other hands up that I was seeing? Oh yes, Tessa.
Laura Liswood: Who we got? Oh, Tessa. You haven’t spoken yet.
Tessa: No, I have not. I think something that really struck me was to take this fear, put it in the backpack, leave it alone, take it back out, reward yourself. Because I dear with social anxiety so a lot of that is situational to social interactions so having that kind of like idea really impacted me to like go like ‘oh, go get my bag of M&Ms and take it with me everywhere, bring it with me.’
Laura Liswood: Ronan? Is it Ronan?
Ronan Lee: Yes. Ok. Something that struck me was that you asked us questions, whereas we’ve been preparing to ask you questions, and you came back and asked us questions. And it felt like it was more personal rather than us just interviewing this person who has done great things in the world; it felt more like a conversation. Which I really liked that.
Laura Liswood: Ok, well thank you Ronan. You also need to know that asking questions is both something I enjoy doing and it’s a bit of a tactic. Because it allows me to hear what’s on your mind and it allows me to think also as you’re speaking about things, and it triggers ideas. So while it may seem like it’s a generous gesture on my part, it’s kind of a combination of generous and selfish. So thanks for saying that.
Ward Mailliard: And I’m going to take one more. Was there any other hand?
Paola Jacobs: Well I mean everybody kind of said the whole interaction part. I liked that. And how everybody was like, ok, ok- I liked how you brought the conversation to South Africa, I mean people just started talking about it, and it kind of just brought me back and just how that whole experience was so eye-opening. And whenever I am like back with everybody and everybody’s talking about it, it always makes me so excited to get out in the world and to help. To really help. I really want to help people and there’s a passion in that for me.
Laura Liswood: Yeah, that’s great. Well you know, I think if I said this in 2018 I’ll just repeat it. I like what you just said. I like you said you had a passion for it and you wanted to get out and do something. Because the best definition- I think I said this- the best definition of a leader I’ve ever heard of is what Capaldi said made the best composer. He said the best composer has a cool head and a hot heart. Right? So your desire to have that cool head of action and the hot heart of passion. Because if you just have that cool head, people aren’t going to follow you, people aren’t going to want to embrace you. If you just have the hot heart, people are going to say ‘well what are we supposed to do about that?’ So you really nicely, and maybe as an ending, encapsulated what it takes to be a great leader, so thank you.
Paola Jacobs: Thank you.
Ward Mailliard: Laura, thank you so much for this time. It’s such a gift. And we will- I’m sure you have your next thing that you have to get onto. But really this was just wonderful, just wonderful. Everybody agreeing; let me see the bobble heads here. Yeah, we’re all agreeing.
Laura Liswood: Ok, it was great to see you all. Hopefully I’ll see you again. And the best of luck to you in everything you do. I’m more and more confident that this world is going to get much better with you all as leaders than you know, us in the back here. So congratulations to you, and go forth, and lead and do the best you can do.