María Pacheco 2020 Transcript
Mount Madonna School – October 29, 2020
via Zoom
María Pacheco is a biologist, entrepreneur, and founder of the Wakami foundation. Wakami is a social system that connects rural communities to global markets in order to generate income and transform cycles of poverty into cycles of prosperity. Wakami is conformed by two organizations that work hand in hand: an NGO that gives professional training to rural groups of women and a social business that designs and exports handmade products made by these women for the global market. Wakami is also a handmade fashion accessories brand used to market our products in 20 countries around the world.
Maria Pacheco: It’s so fun to see everybody in school, everybody wearing masks like we have to do here.
Ward Mailliard: Yeah, I know, I know. I remember that (first) interview with you very, very well. And I remember how struck I was with both your relationship with Alyse and the clarity of your mission. And then you disappeared back in Guatemala, so we could no longer track you. And one of the strange benefits of the COVID time is now we’re talking to everybody on Zoom. So what we’re going to do is launch into questions when you’re ready, but we’ve done our research as we usually do. If you have anything you’d like to say to us as kind of what’s on your mind, that’d be great. And then we can launch into questions. Or we can do it whatever way you want at this point.
Maria Pacheco: No, maybe say something beforehand. Just first, thank you for the opportunity. And like you say, one of the good things about COVID is we realize we’re more connected and we used to I think think that if things didn’t happen in person, the virtual wasn’t as good. But I think it’s becoming good in terms of we can connect with people when it would be really harder. So for me, I’m thrilled to be able to see what’s in your minds, to be able to- more than anything- I’d love to hear where you guys are at, how do you see the world, what you want- you know what projects you are working on, what’s important to you as young people these days with such a world that we have. I think for me, I’d love to really know where you are. And also at some point share a little bit about what we’ve learned through these 30 years of being your age and wanting to run away from the world, at least in my case, and then finding out a dream that was worth everything. So, for me, I’d love to know you know what you’re thinking, how you see the world, and what you’d like me to share based on your research of me.
Ward Mailliard: Very good. So actually, I think that’s a really good idea, is to turn the tables a little bit. And let’s hear- she asked a series of questions, right? About how, kind of, how’s it going? Where are you right now in this context? And I’d like to hear from a few of you to- so she can get kind of the sense of who you are and what’s on your mind. So let’s take a couple of responses to that.
Summer: Hi, I’m Summer. I’m glad that you’re here with us today. So I feel like a lot of our generation kind of has a simultaneous we’re scared for the future, but at the same time, we know that it’s our job to make it better and that we can do that. So I think there’s a lot of hope there too.
Grace: Hi, I’m Grace. I would definitely agree with Summer that our generation feels a responsibility to better the world in a way, but I think we also feel a lot of weight on top of us because of the problems that have been in our life without consent in a way.
Maria Pacheco: What you’ve inherited.
Grace: Yes, exactly.
Amira: Hi, I’m Amira and it’s great to meet you. I agree with Summer and Grace but I think that because we have this responsibility on our shoulders, it makes it- like not exciting, but something to look forward to in life, to kind of have this thing that we need to work on together like as a big community, a world community.
Maria Pacheco: It’s important to me to know where you guys are at that way.
Ben: Hi, I’m Ben and I kind of want to go along with what Amira said. There’s kind of just a lot of opportunity for our generation to create change and better the world. There’s a lot about that that is exciting. So yeah, that’s how I feel about everything.
Liana: I’m Liana, hello. I think I am kind of scared for our future, or scared to what we are inheriting. But I think we can make a really good change. Even now as teenagers I feel like we’re already moving towards change and we’re not even adults yet. So I feel like once we are, we can actually make huge changes which is really exciting.
Ward Mailliard: How many of you feel that way? I mean give us some examples of what you’re already doing. Ok? You say we’re already moving, what are some example of things you’re doing?
Liana: I think we’re already talking about how to change- for example for the environment, how we can make a change to stop global warming and for example, Greta- how do you say her last name?
Unknown speaker: Thunberg.
Liana: Thunberg, yes. She is amazing and she is only about our age and she’s already talking to world leaders. So that shows what we can do even at this age.
Ward Mailliard: And you’re talking to a world leader right now. So that’s the beauty of it. Somebody who has committed themselves to social action. Yeah, great. So you connected the dots for us, good for you. Ok, does that give you kind of the temperature of the room?
Maria Pacheco: No, no, that’s not just gives me the temperature, but that’s exactly how I felt when I was there age. So I can- I mean I can connect. I’m getting chills from even hearing you guys, I really am.
Ward Mailliard: Beautiful guys. Alright, you’ve been doing things, like I saw that blood drive thing. What is- explain that to me because I didn’t even stop to read the notice. Who’s got that one?
Alyssa: Hi, my name’s Alyssa. So what SN was referring to is at school we started the American Red Cross Club and we wanted to do a fundraiser to give back to them so that’s something we’ve been doing. I’ve also started a group, it’s called- we call it That’s on Period Project and I started it with some girls in my class: Grace, and Blythe, and Liana – and we want to raise awareness on like the stigmas around menstruation and we’re also working to like receive donations and give back to local shelters.
Gracie: Yeah, building off of what Alyssa said: our area has a very high homeless population, and obviously a large amount of that population happens to be women and we learned about sort of what happens to women in poverty and how they have a hard time receiving menstruation products. So we are working to help donate those products to local shelters and such.
Ward Mailliard: My job’s done, I guess I can retire now, they already got it. Ok, so are we ready to go to questions for you?
Maria Pacheco: Yeah.
Student: Ok, alright. So the first question I have is on the Wakami website, it says that each of your products has a story behind it, or a story that inspires it. So can you talk about one or two of the stories?
Maria Pacheco: Yeah, ok. So and we’re getting better at that. One of the things that we realized is that when you know thinking that what we can do to improve the world, thinking that we have a lot of options around politics, or you know just different things. And I realized that by building a brand we can really now communicate the values that are important to us. So for example, one of the things that we love is the new bracelet of citizens of the world. I think- sorry, my phone’s ringing, give me a minute. One of the things that we realized is that through COVID, you know we are all connected. And COVID kind of connected us in a bad way. It made us realize how vulnerable we are- we all are. But it also made me realize how connected we are as well, for good. You know for collective projects, things like that. So one of my favorite collections is the Citizen of the World Collection. And you know and just trying to think that borders are down with something like COVID, imagine what with collaboration, borders really don’t exist and we can do many things. So that’s one of the ones that I love. And it reflects- and we did like a manifesto. So as a brand, we put products out, we can have like stories of citizens of the world. Right now we did one called (other language), which is Guatemala, so the Country of the Corn Crop. And all stories talk about Guatemala, people are men of corn and women of corn, and just really being able to honor our roots in a country, just like the US, is really polarized and everybody is just looking for ways to divide.
And our best sellers has always been the earth bracelets which are seven bracelets that talk about how the earth was created, but it was dark so the sun was attached to it and but when the sun rested it was dark again, so the moon and the stars were created. And water and air. But nothing moved, so plants and animals were created. And finally boys and girls to take care of the earth. But the earth felt that something was missing, something that connected to everything that was created. And so love was created, connecting everything. And so that’s our best seller and it just really reflects what we believe. Because I think in times that are hard, we can chose two emotions: anger or love. And that choice throughout life is going to lead you to two different ways. So we feel that always finding that love is something that inspires us.
And right now we have a nutrition bracelet where a percent goes to kids with malnutrition. Right now we’re starting a scholarship program for all the villages because with COVID, parents have no income. So you know we can really- our products can really be ambassadors that do other things, but also share this view of the world that comes from a place of love and hope and unity, and not fear, division, and other things. And this was born in the middle of this pandemic.
I can relate to you guys when you say you feel fear from the world. In my case, I did high school in Kansas, came back to a country at war with a million people fleeing, 2,000 people dead. A lot of my friends dead. And just seeing, gosh, ‘I want to run away from this country’. And so I can really relate to that. You guys, none of you said you want to run away, I did. Not just because I was ashamed for this war that was killing babies and families, but also as a woman, we were expected to do things that I thought were abhorring. So I just thought of this idea to run away. But then you know, finding that it was- even though it was hard, if I had a dream, that dream was really worth everything. And that dream was always I want to live in a land with happy people and a happy earth. And that dream has been like, you know like wait, you’re saying it’s been the mission, how do we make people happy in a country with so much poverty? And how, at the same time, we can really improve the earth in a country where poverty takes a toll on the environment? But also corperate world takes a toll.
Ben: I’m Ben. In an interview with Harper’s Bazaar Magazine, you said that “in the fashion industry, people go for products that make people look beautiful, but you would like to go for products that make the lives of the people that produce them beautiful too”. Can you talk more about that concept? And do you think that can be translated to the industry as a whole?
Maria Pacheco: Yeah, for us, you know like I never wanted to be a business person, I never wanted to sell products, I just wanted to change communities in my country, communities that were living on less than a dollar a day. But these communities, what they would ask us was if you can tell us what to produce, the rest we can do. So as a biologist, I got a masters in agriculture, it was like ok, what do you people do so I can sell? So we started- I was seeing what communities could do and we start selling all kinds of things but it got kind of crazy from selling tomatoes to flowers to (can’t understand) to soaps, to whatever a peace corps volunteer had left in the village. And that’s when we decided let’s create a brand that is a highway to market for many Guatemalan women in rural villages can use that highway to get income. So that is why we started something like Wakami. But what I realized early on is that when we made bracelets- and why did we chose fashion accessories? Because like here, communities make baskets and beautiful weavings, and (can’t understand), which is their clothes—they take like a month to make. Those should cost $3,000 if you were to pay a fair price. But nobody’s going to pay that.
So we said, ok, what can generate income for these women- which is what we wanted- but is also something that the world will want. So we researched and we found the bracelet and we found that fashion accessories is something that is growing really fast, it’s something very easy to export, and at the same time, it’s something that the women can produce really fast and go back and forth in public transportation to the production center. So that’s why we said ‘ok, we’re going to do bracelets’. And people say ‘oh, you’re the bracelet company’. And I say ‘if you guys saw how much is behind that’. Because then you know what happens is- just to give you an idea, in a country like Guatemala where 60% of people live in poverty, under two dollar a day, and 50% of children have chronic malnutrition. That means from the time they are two years old, their brains are going to be smaller, their learning ability’s going to be really small. And so for us, it was ok, so how do we bring income? So by women starting to make these products from their home with a design that you know follows the global trends but is something that they can make, they started getting income.
But in Guatemala- and the income really empowered women. Guatemala is a country with the biggest gender index. Meaning if you’re born a woman, by the time- all these girls, you’re in high school; you’d already be married with a kid- or just with kids. Because in the villages, in the (can’t understand) societies, why invest in a girl that’s going to get married and go live with someone else? So we will only invest in boys. So you have mothers that have second or third grade education, hardly speak Spanish, that have kids. And they’ve always been told ‘you’re useless, your role is to be in the house and have kids, nothing else’. So as these women start having income, we train them. We do, we train them for two years. But within the first two or three months, they make the first bracelets, they have income, and they start- when they get their first paycheck it’s like (gasp), ‘I’m worth something’. But in a country- so they start getting the income and they start saying you know ‘we thought we were going to be divorced’. But actually they’re saying, ‘now that we have income, our husbands value us, our kids value us, our community values us’. So the money’s not that they can use it, but it’s what they represent, the fact that they can earn it.
So that was the first 15 years of Wakami. But then we realized that the women’s dreams were not just to have income for the sake of it, they want to have healthy, educated kids. Because they don’t want- and especially healthy, educated girls, because they don’t want their daughters to go through the same thing. So with Wakami, on the one hand, we developed through the social business we do the income generation. But through the Wakami foundation we do the other part which is bring to the women opportunities that really will improve their lives that the government should do but there’s no government in Guatemala in the villages. So if there’s a sick kid, there’s no doctor, there’s no health center. So we talk to the women and said ‘what are the three most important things for you?’ They said health, they said education, and we want to have healthy homes, beautiful homes. So as Wakami foundation, we partner with others (1) to bring in a thousand day window nutrition which is a best practice for how to decrease malnutrition. And it’s teaching the women about which foods, what foods, clean waters, (can’t understand) out of the house, and we have a nutritionist that goes to each one of them. And then we will bring products like filters, stoves that they can invest in.
And then right now, if you see on the webpage, we started a big scholarship program because even though mothers are making money, and fathers too, there’s no high schools in the local village. So going to general high school and high school, they’re not public, they’re private. Public high schools- public school only goes through sixth grade, and they have to travel. So it’s not just paying the high school fee but the transportation and the feeding of the child all day away. So we partner with them on that. So that’s why we say our formula for change is ‘dreams plus opportunity equals change’. And Wakami gives three opportunities: to have a source of income- first to become a formal business, then to have a source of income, and third: to have services that allow them to transform that income into nutrition, education, which is what they dream about. So that’s why- and the more- so you know you go to the villages and they say ‘please more orders, more orders’, because they know more orders means more money which means more dreams coming true. But we partner with them also with the part that the government should do but it’s not doing. Or else the money, with dirty water and no doctor and no knowledge about health, doesn’t improve the quality of life. So that’s what we mean.
And at the end, to finish answering your question- so you know I tell the women, when people come to visit, they tell ‘oh, my kids are going to school, they’re graduating from college, and my house is beautiful, and my husband respects me’. But I tell the women, you know, ‘but how have you changed through this?’ And what one of them said for me made it all worthwhile. She said, ‘now, Maria, I can look at people in the eyes, I know I am worth something’. So that’s what we mean by products that transform lives.
Grace: Hi, so I’m Grace and I have done- I am very, very interested in the fashion industry and I’ve done a lot of research and learned that it’s very dominated by large corporations that engage in unethical and non-environmentally friendly practices. So what are some of the strengths and challenges of being an environmentally and ethical brand?
Maria Pacheco: There are a lot. A lot. Because when you talk about big factories, like for Wakami- so first, we don’t have a factory. Right, it’s different villages with women leaders, each one producing from their homes. So it’s an expensive process: sending the products, receiving the products, versus having everyone in one place. Second, in the handmade accessory, what is very few brands that pay minimum wage. Or the whole artisanal market is not based on minimal wage. So to be able to put that, it’s another layer of expense. So I would say that is hard and that’s why at the beginning we were just exporting to distributors, but we didn’t have our own brand. So a lot of the last years have been built around the idea of we need to become a brand so we can share these values and we won’t be competing in pricing. Like for example, my customer in Japan will say ‘Maria, but in China I can get it at half’. And I say ‘yeah, but we’re not China’. This is about people that want to buy from a brand that will not just transform lives, but will transform our customers lives through being part of something that creates change. So that’s one of the challenges.
I mean in terms of sustainable products, more and more we are moving in that direction. So for example, right now, Wakami clothes are made from- the dyes are natural dyes and there’s a challenge in that in sometimes the technology is not so advanced. But right now, we’re starting to work with a company that recycles jeans. So it’s called The New Denim Project, so we- our new collection, which is very small items, we are not a clothing company, it is all from recycled jeans. So finding- and right now we are looking into- there’s a company in Guatemala that is recycling plastic, and you know it- Four Oceans is working in Guatemala recycling plastic. And so we’re working with a factory so that recycled plastic can become bracelets that we can make for Four Oceans. But it’s like the volumes are- minimum values are so huge so you know, this factory can only do it if it’s like 3,000 cones is the minimum thing and that will last for five years. So you know it’s getting- but for me, what I’ve learned is not to be radical, but say it’s either all recycled or all sustainable or else we don’t do it, because we wouldn’t have the business. Our first thing is the women.
But as more and more sustainable products come out, we chose those. So but in a place like (can’t understand), the (can’t understand) are not readily available. But right now, my daughter Anna graduated from Savannah, she’s in the industry designing textiles. So more and more we have ways to do more sustainable things, more sustainable materials. But it is hard because there’s a reason why climate change and poverty exist and it’s a market force, it’s not everybody- you know, with what we buy, we chose the world we want. But everybody has a limited budget right? So do I go to this just like cheap brand that sells me all that I want, and I can buy 10 clothes, or save two months and buy one product. So it is- and we’re all like that. We have to- we cannot- it’s hard to save the world in every single purchase that we make. So those are the challenges. So to be a brand that is not cheap but that people can understand what’s behind it so that they can be a part of a movement, not a brand. Did that answer your question?
Ward Mailliard: I love that. I love the phrase ‘by what we buy, we chose the world in which we live’. That is a powerful statement. We talked a little bit about that. We were talking about supply chain and awareness of where things come from. So I really appreciate that you said that.
Alyssa: Hi, I’m Alyssa. So I think it’s really cool that through Wakami, you’re able to empower both women and men. So in an interview with Mount Madonna School in 2008, you asked the question ‘what happens when women can be women?’ and later responded with ‘men can be men’. Can you please expand on your thoughts on what that means to you?
Maria Pacheco: Yeah, I think you know the bad thing about machismo, and Guatemala’s one of the machismo countries in the world, the bad thing about machismo is exactly what I said, not only are women aren’t allowed to be women, but men aren’t allowed to be men. So in the machismo society like the woman is not supposed to get an income, is supposed to obey, is supposed to just be in the house and have kids. But that, you know, what we have seen from so many videos is that when someone has absolute power, that leads to violence. So you know if only the man has income and the woman is always like ‘please can you give me for this?’ At the end it turns into violence. So women are being cut short of their potential in which there’s nothing that we can’t do. I think women are different because we can give life, whether we chose to have kids or not. So we’re complimentary. But the fact that women in general have some differences doesn’t mean that we should be subject to somebody else telling us what to do. So as women gain their freedom, it’s like the best of us. And like Alyse from Vital Voices would say, it’s like women lead different with power, and that’s very complimentary to the way men lead.
So that’s good. But you know, men in Guata, like if a man cries, oh you shouldn’t cry, you should be a macho, what are you talking about? When a man is like holding his kids and it’s like ‘oh my god, you’re like a woman now’. Or you know, in Guata, when women start working, the other guys tell the man ‘oh, now your wife is working so that means you’re not good enough’. So it’s all these beliefs that come from fear and making people fit into roles that are not working anymore for this world. So as each one can be free and connect on that, that’s how we make the best of it. You know Santos, a 19-year-old mother that is the Wakami leader in (can’t understand)– I told her ‘Santos, what would you like to share with the world? What would you tell them if you could speak?’ And she said, ‘Maria, I would tell the men to let the women work and be independent because if the man and the woman works in the home, the dreams become a reality faster’. You know, and that’s in a country where if the woman leaves the house and the man- not just the men, the women too- ‘oh, she must have a lover’. You know in this country everything is about women being laid, like she must have a lover. Or ‘why is she leaving the house? Who is she going to get together with? You’re not a man, you’re not strong enough, you’re letting your woman out of control’. You know all those things.
But when women are empowered, the men are also grateful because most of the Guata men live out of agriculture and climate change affects Guatemala- it’s one of the most countries affected by it. We’re a narrow country between the Atlantic and the Pacific Ocean. So for men, what they’re finding, and the women are saying ‘oh, our husbands are thankful because sometimes they would come and say ‘oh, I don’t have enough money’ and we can say as women, ‘look, here, let’s pay the bills together’’. And the respect that comes out of that, and the acknowledgement and it’s no longer somebody dominating the other one that makes a difference. And I think this can be applied to the whole world. You know when a big country controls a little country or you know whoever has power and abuses the power, that’s when the problems start. But when everybody has an equal power- and as human beings we recognize we have different talents and different scenarios where we operate- but as human beings we all have the same value and power; that’s what allows us to be free as well.
You guys are reminding me of things I don’t even remember I had said.
Blythe: Hi, I’m Blythe. On your website, you’ve discussed how you must first build up communities to the point where they can take care of their families, before they can take care of the earth. Can you talk about the connection between community building as it relate to the economy and the environment?
Maria Pacheco: Yeah, you know like I’m a biologist, I got a masters in- not alternative agriculture because then they didn’t have it but (can’t understand) management at Cornell. And I came back and- I mean, also my Mayan- in Guatemala we believe that based on the day we’re born, we’re born with a mission and for me the environment- like I can literally feel the earth. I’m a tree hugger, when I see a dirty river all I can think is about how do we make it clean? That’s where my heart comes from. But when you go to Guatemala and you go to these villages, I realized that people cannot take care of the environment if they cannot take care of themselves first. So that’s why I always say with Wakami, we took a 30 year detour in saying ok, how do we get the income so that they take care of the environment? And acknowledging that communities that are poor, maybe they contaminate rivers, cut some firewood, but it’s not bigger than big corporations chopping down entire forests just to do something else. So we all are responsible.
But what I am seeing now is- and I love it- is when we start with the women, you know like the home improvement; instead of using a lot of firewood, they’re changing to gas stoves or into (can’t understand) stoves that get the smoke out of the house but optimize that. We’re starting to do some recycling projects. Right now we’re really starting regenerative agriculture which I love because we realized that with COVID, markets are on and off, right? So when COVID happened, we started saying ok, Wakami women have come from the market, their men are usually copy producers or something, so how can we bring another knowledge where in case the markets go up or down they have food and they have some local things.
So we started regenerative agriculture which is based- and it’s a methodology developed by a Guatemalan migrant in the US and it’s- you start with chickens that lay eggs so immediately the next day you have eggs for local consumption and for local sales. But then with the chicken manure, you start fertilizing the coffee, you start doing organic gardens with native plants that are also for consumption and to sell. So right now, the women that are empowered and have a source of income, now we’re starting to diversify their source of income into something that’s my passion that it’s regenerative agriculture. So right now that’s where we feel there’s a perfect like- I mean it’s beautiful seeing the women go in that direction.
Ward Mailliard: So this next question, I’m partly to blame for this, and it’s probably the hardest question to ask and it may be one of the harder questions to answer. But we thought that you would be a resource to answer a question that we couldn’t answer. And so Amira is going to take the challenge and if the question doesn’t make sense we can discuss it. Go ahead Amira.
Amira: Hi, I’m Amira and in class we discussed the relationship between women’s empowerment, economics, and the environment and felt that there was an intuitive connection that we could not quite get clear. Could you please help us clarify this interconnection?
Maria Pacheco: Between economic development and environment?
Amira: Between women empowerment, economics, and the environment.
Ward Mailliard: In other words, we asked you a question about economics and the environment, but women’s empowerment seems to me, and we discussed it and we didn’t quite get there, but it seems there’s an intrinsic relationship between all three. So we’re adding in women’s empowerment in relationship to the environment, and of course we already know the relationship between economics and the environment. So I’m just wondering if you could connect the loop for us because it’s something I’ve wondered about for a long time and we got into a discussion in class about it.
Maria Pacheco: Yeah I will tell you what Alyse- based on my experience, right? Like I say, I’m no academic, I just can talk from what I have seen. What I have seen is- and that’s where Vital Voices- that really women lead different. And there’s exceptions, right? I don’t want to- but women lead different. When a woman has power, she will share that power. When a woman- usually, like all the women leaders I saw in Vital Voices, we all had strong connection- strong roots to our communities. There was something- we never dreamt of being leaders or being business people, there was something that hurt us that we really wanted to change. And so also- women are also good at being able to cross lines that divide. So usually- sometimes- and I see it, guys that want to maintain their grounds and a woman will be the one going back and forth. That’s generality. Those are, I would say, good things about how women lead. However though, the fight might be the women will be the bridge, the guys will forget about it faster than the women, you know? We keep it with us.
So women lead different. And I believe that because women are able to give life. We are wired differently whether we have kids or not, we have that ability, that’s in us. So the way we respect and see life is very wholistic. You know what, I’m not sure that we would have that many wars if it was women sending their kids to war versus- And I think that applies to everything. To social, to the environment. So what I see is you know with women, with Wakami women, a lot of them- it will be like ‘ok Maria, my kids are out of high school, out of college, but I have 20 women here who have little kids, what can I keep doing? It’s not about me anymore, it’s about giving them the opportunities that we’ve had’. And I think the environment is the same. I mean as a woman- for example, if you were a woman in Guatemala, you need water, you need clean water, you need firewood, you need food. Women are connected to those immediate needs. So as they start realizing that they can, you know if they don’t throw the garbage in the river it’s going to be cleaner. That the wood they need for every day that they need to plant that wood. I think there’s this way of seeing things more wholistic. I think when women make decisions- and that’s why they say we’re more complicated- we take more things into account. And that’s like I say, a generality, and what I’ve seen in the Wakami women.
So I think that connection to life makes us really value life and life in all its forms. And why- what does that have to do with women’s empowerment and economics? I think- and I see it- a woman that is not empowered, she thinks she’s worthless. So the only way she sees the world is ‘I’m worthless, there’s nothing I can do’. But once you empower that woman and she realizes that she can have income, she can change the life of her kids; then she realizes that there’s nothing she can’t do. And then they will immediately say ‘I want to improve my community, I want to improve my environment’. But it comes from having power. It’s very hard when you’re an uneducated girls that doesn’t speak the national language just a local language that only your village speaks. And you’ve always just- once you finish fourth grade they say your room is in the kitchen with open fire and like what can that woman decide? She can’t even decide about her life, much less making the world better. But once that woman is empowered and she realizes that she can make the better world, that she has something- like all that you guys said: we know there’s something the we can do, we know we can do it. Once a woman knows that, and men too to be honest, then everything starts changing. So it’s from a position of ‘I’m a victim, my place is in the kitchen’, to ‘I can fly’. You know? And when you can fly, you can think not just of yourself, you can think of your family, you can think of your community, you can think of the earth.
So I don’t know if that answers it but maybe an unempowered woman, she can’t do anything. But an empowered woman can and she will make connections, wholistic connections very easy- that’s the nature of women.
Ward Mailliard: Well from me, thank you very much. That really closed the loop for me. I think only you could’ve answered that question. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Amira, are you satisfied?
Amira: Yes.
Maria Pacheco: Like somebody in my class- one of my board members says ‘it’s a fragmatic answer’. Right? There’s many more, but that’s my fragment to that.
Ward Mailliard: It really puts a big piece in place for me that I just didn’t have, and being a man, I could never have known that, you know, without being educated. Which is to understand, as you say, women lead differently. I’ve heard that from Alyse and many people in the Vital Voices network. But when you bring it to the element of giving life and the way that shifts your perspective, that’s where there’s a divide that we have to be educated to be empathetic and aware. So I think that’s a powerful message, and I thank you for it. It helped me, I learned something.
Maria Pacheco: And to let you know, for example, I was one of the first business women in an all-male think tank. And every time I would raise my hand their eyes would turn and it’s like the minute we have two or three women in the room where we would support each other, you know, there was more balance. At the end of my four years serving as a board member, they really said ‘Maria, you guys really changed us, now we see the potential in you, and we’re such much a better organization because of you guys’. And I think that is saying in the world right now, the balance between men and women is so bad, you need women to- you need women to step up and you need men to allow those voices to be heard.
Part of why I was invited to that board meeting was because men in our class realized that they were missing something. So it’s a- women have to step up and men have- men can provide those spaces. And I think as women and men are more empowered, we can all, as men and women, be free to be our best versions as humans.
Ward Mailliard: Beautiful. I remember Layli Miller-Muro told us one time that- we asked her ‘when did things start to change when women came into the board rooms?’, and she said you needed about 30% which is what you just said. And then it’s like-
Maria Pacheco: It’s a tipping point.
Ward Mailliard: Yeah. Beautiful.
Addy: Hi, I’m Addy. You said in an interview with Harper’s Bazaar Magazine that the skill most critical to your success is listening to people. How has the skill of listening enhanced your success and what does it mean to truly listen to a person?
Maria Pacheco: I think, like I was telling you, I was more of an environmentalist, and the minute I went to communities and I didn’t just listen to them, I felt their pain that said ok, skip the environment for a little bit, let’s go and try to work with these women so we can provide the opportunities that they need. So Wakami is a result of listening to what communities needed. But it’s not just listening, it’s the ability to feel as they feel. And that’s called empathy I think. So when I go to a village, I can connect to a mother that’s just lost a child, I can connect to her pain. But I can also connect to her dreams. So you know with my team, when we are training new people, I tell them- they say oh, Maria, and they said this and they said that’. And I said you know what, before you start anything, listen to the people and feel the people. And that will tell you how to get started. Because if not, you can just deliver the speech that never connects with anybody, or think you’re bringing an opportunity that nobody really wanted. So I think when you can truly listen, you can truly feel and build together. We say we like to co-build with people of the world, and that means acknowledging that we have part of the answer but someone else might have the other part.
But really, in Wakami, I think the reason why we all changed, not just the women but our team and travelers that come to visit Wakami, is because we always start with acknowledging who we are as humans: what our dreams and what our fears are. And once you have a human connection, then you can build other things. But in a country like Guate, if you just came and told the women ‘ok, we’re going to do this and that and that’, they’re going to be thinking ‘why is this opportunity for me, I’m worthless, I’m told I’m worthless’. So unless you connect, you cannot walk together with people, equally with people. And the whole idea is to walk together with people. And I think the beautiful thing to me is as I listen to them and we try to bring solutions, also my own pain heals. I can heal other people’s pain and mine heals. And so it’s a celebration of coming together, but at heart and in our spirits first, before we do anything. And that’s why today I wanted to know where you guys are at because I can just speak, but you know what is important to you? What are you thinking? Where are you? How can I connect with you?
Amira: Hi, it’s Amira again. And we read how Guatemala went through a 36 year civil war ending in 1996. Since that was 24 years ago, a new generation has been born, and I’m curious about the differences, if there are any, between those who went through the conflict, and those that were born after the conflict.
Maria Pacheco: Yeah, I think they say that people that are 30 years or younger, don’t connect to the war, but they are living the consequences of the war. So yeah I think the generation- our generation, it’s my generation- you know, if I would’ve spoken what I thought at that time when we were being slaughtered by the military and I was going to a university that was a high- like a private university- if I would’ve spoken my mind, I would’ve been killed back then. So we all learned- I learned that rather than talking is doing. So my way of protest, my activism, it’s all by doing. By thinking, you know it’s easy to criticize but creating a solution takes a lot of time. But I won’t be the person in the room saying to a corporation ‘you’re doing wrong’. That’s not who I am. In my time, that would’ve gotten my killed. I’m all about solutions and finding what brings people together.
The new generation right now, they’re like- they’re- because it was a trauma for the parents to see all of these family members killed, the new generation doesn’t talk about it too much, but they know there’s a pain there. Unless you deal with something, it goes on for generations and generations. So although they might not talk about the war, the anger of their parents, and the suffering of their parents goes through. And what I always- so what I always say is that in a country like Guatemala, it’s so important for generations to talk about such things as these so that the older can heal. And as the older heal, they can be better towards their kids and the kids can understand the older generation with what they went through. And that’s something that’s missing in Guata. Nobody ever apologized to the villages, or it was never like in South Africa where they had people’s trials.
So I think the new generation lives in poverty because now more people are dead because of poverty than because of war. And I think there’s a certain anger and a certain feel like- and it’s well deserved, a feeling like we’re victims of a system. And what that does is it creates resentment. So you have a country like Guatemala where you have a lot of resentment here and the people who didn’t live the war are like ‘why are they still talking about the war? That was 50 years ago’. So it’s a lot of different dynamics I think that happen. So the new generation will speak up more. I mean they won’t get killed, they will be more brave. But there’s still very limited resources because it’s a country that is very polarized. As the war got turned into left and right, communism and capitalism. Or liberals or communists, you know? And there’s no dialogue in between. So the war has different faces now; the faces of poverty and caravans are a result of that not being solved. But also, yeah- but at the individual level, I think the individuals like see so much pain from their parents and they breathe that and they don’t understand necessarily why. Because there hasn’t been a healing process that needs to happen. I don’t know if that answers your question.
Amira: Yes, thank you.
Ward Mailliard: I would like to hear from you guys and have Maria hear a little bit about what she said, like something that struck you, that was meaningful to you. And say your name again so she knows who you are.
Ben: Hi, I’m Ben and I thought it was really interesting because we’ve talked a lot in class about beautiful theories, which is pretty much just something that’s really simple but it means so much and you talked about how dreams plus opportunity equals change and I thought that was- I thought that was a beautiful theory so I wrote it down and I just like- it was so simplistic but it meant so much and it can be applied in so many different ways. So I thought that was really interesting.
Maria Pacheco: Thank you, Ben.
Liana: Hi, I’m Liana again. And something that struck me is when you said that activism is by doing and it’s easy to criticize but it’s harder to actually make a change. And I feel like that is something that I really needed to hear because I struggle with how I can make a change. And I feel like sometimes if I’m not speaking out and other people are, I feel like I’m not doing enough. But when you said it’s by doing, I can do other things that make a change, and I just don’t have to be talking about it but I can do other things. So thank you.
Grace: Hi, I’m Grace again and something that you said that struck me, and SN also mentioned this, was by what we buy, we chose the world in which we live in. And I don’t know, that really struck me because it’s something that I have also thought about a lot. You know you talked about how we can make the choice to save up and buy ethical, or buy a lot and buy unethical. And I think that really struck me because it’s such an important choice on what we chose to support, and what we chose to yeah, just support and buy and like give like our money into. And I don’t know, that’s just very important I think at least for me to remember and that there’s always an ethical option I think.
Ward Mailliard: It’s interesting, having money is a big responsibility in some ways because when you spend it, you’re pushing it through a whole chain of reality. So if you have money, there’s a different kind of responsibility that goes with it to see that it’s spent in a way that doesn’t make things worse. So that’s a good point Gracie, thank you.
Addy: Hi, I’m Addy and you said that when women first receive their first paycheck, they often go to you and say ‘Maria, now I can look people in the eyes and know that I am worth something’. And that kind of struck me because it’s like crazy that people can think they’re inferior to someone else even though we’re all pretty much the same inside. And I don’t know it’s just crazy that that’s a thing that has been enforced by today’s society. And I thought that that was very, very strange. Because I live in like a very liberal bubble here and a lot of like- I don’t see that kind of sexism or racism here. So to hear about it is just like shocking.
Maria Pacheco: Thank you.
Kayla: Hi, I’m Kayla. At one point, you said that everyone was born with a purpose and yours was to help the environment, and that struck me a lot actually because I think it’s really interesting because you think everyone was born with a purpose because I mean I think that’s true. But I’m also still very young and I don’t know what my purpose here is yet and I’m very excited to find out.
Summer: Hi, I’m Summer, again. Near the beginning, you said something along the lines of ‘anger or love, and that choice in life can lead you to many different places’. And like I know a lot of the time people try to stay away from ultimatums like something or another thing, but I don’t know, I really like this one. It’s just really powerful and I think it’s just a good thing to keep in mind, that there is a choice and you can choose one over the other.
Maria Pacheco: Thank you.
Amira: Hi, it’s Amira and kind of going off of what Summer said, in the beginning you were talking about how the moon was created, and the stars were created, and the entire process of creation and how love was created to connect all of us and I personally hear a lot whenever we’re saying goodbyes like ‘love ya’ and it’s like, for me, the word love has kind of lost its meaning. So when I heard that there was new meaning that was put into the word. So thank you.
Ward Mailliard: Elegant theories, right? We talked about elegant theories, or beautiful theories which takes a lot of complexity and puts it into a simple phrase that reminds us of all that’s underneath that phrase. And actually it came from our study of a theoretical physicist by the name of Murry Gelman who discovered the name of a cork and he was talking about how Einstein loved beautiful theories and it’s because in the simplicity of the statement was a world. So you’ve rung the bell several times. And do you guys see how elegant that concept of beautiful theories is that connects us and gives us a language to talk about something important that’s hard to name. So that- and I’m actually sitting here being really happy that you brought that up, you know? Because it means something connected in the work that we’re doing together and that’s very rewarding to me. So I’m impressed and thankful. There was a question that came up that we worked on a bit that I think should be asked and that Bryce- where are you?
Bryce: Hi, my name’s Bryce. It seems from our research that you have made commitments in your life without knowing how things would turn out. Can you talk about the decisions to do things when the return you might get is not clear?
Maria Pacheco: Oh my God, that question is almost making me tear up a little. Yeah, I think like for me, I don’t like read about something and then decide ‘oh I think’- or the way I was ‘oh, I want to one day be a business women and I want to do this and I want power and I want this’. No, for me, I saw something that really hurt me that I could connect and my passion was to change that. And that has taken me to levels that I don’t even imagine. And it’s been really hard, like Alyse always says from Vital Voices: the hardest thing is staying the course. So when I started working in communities where the war was still happening and I had graduated from Cornell with a masters; all my friends came back to big corporations. And people were laughing at me: Maria you went to Cornell to now be you know working with farmer, what’s wrong with you? Because I had became an organic farmer and just kind of like ‘I’m going to figure this thing out’. It’s been hard. And a lot of times- well, I got divorced so I was raising my kids alone and being in a social business, not having a big job, big security. Sometimes it was like hard, it was hard for me, it was hard for my kids. But I feel like the way that I believe it is that I cannot be ok if the rest is not ok. Like that (can’t understand) poem you know, ‘no man is an island entirely by itself’. You know and for whom the bell tolls. So we’re all connected.
And I think for me, I cannot be at peace when I realized that other people are not at peace. And that was extreme when I was young and that’s how I lived 30 years now I feel like the peace comes from knowing that I haven’t changed everything, but I’ve done everything to change one thing. And so I think having peace is the most precious gift for me in all of this. Now Wakami is starting to get more profitable and we’re getting more foundations, more funds. But there were times when working with the villages meant I don’t have a salary. And I don’t even remember how being a single mother with no salary I made it. But for me, it was all about walking the talk and having peace in a country that shows me so many injustices. But then again, like many of you said, I chose to stay that course and now it’s- entrepreneurship is fancy and it’s beautiful and I get invited- like Jill Biden was here in one of our communities. I was just notified three days ago that I was selected as top three business women in Guatemala, like more admired. And I’m like ‘what? I’ve been in the villages, like I’m not even out there’. This is like the third talk I give in these seven months of COVID.
But I think what people respect is not- it’s just staying the course and really being true to myself. And I think that when it’s hard times, I don’t go outside, I go inside and say ‘where’s my walk the talk? Where’s my spirit with my heart, with my mission, with my purpose?’ and try to align it. And it’s been plenty times hard. But now like I have my kids and you know I think as a mom, single mom, I had to leave my kids a lot sometimes. I’d say ‘kids you do your homework, my role is to pay for school, yours is to do homework’. I never did any homework and they’re straight A kids. But one day my Anna, my daughter, who wanted to be a fashion designer, I met Diane Fostenberger from New York, a famous fashion designer, through Vital Voices. She invited me to go to her store in New York to kind of share what I’m sharing with you guys. And Anna met her and Anna said ‘Diane, could I do an internship with you?’ at 17. And you know, one day, Anna is in New York, my daughter, making an internship with (can’t understand). And she says ‘mom, you know what? If you would’ve not done things for other people’s kids, other people wouldn’t be doing things for me. And look at this opportunity to be working at one of the biggest fashion brands in the US’.
So I think at the end, what I can say is it will be very hard and that’s why the reason you’re doing what you’re doing has to be very strong, and the dream has to be very strong. You can alter it, you can adjust, you can be flexible, but never- I think what some of you have said, I think we all don’t just have missions and purposes; we all have a talent. And it’s our choice whether we share it or not. Like we say in Wakami you know, nobody has all the talent, and everybody has one talent. So it’s strange you know, what is that gift that you bring to the world? And be honest about it, and don’t seek for approval. It’s you that has to connect to your center to find what that is. And it won’t happen- I mean I’m 56, right, I’ve had long enough time. You guys are just getting started. But it’s just to be attentive and to be listening to yourselves and your true heart.
Ward Mailliard: Wow. It’s something that we’ve talked a little bit about Maria, and thank you for that answer. So many people want life to be predictable, and they want predictable outcomes. And you’re- one of the reasons I have always admired you, and I admire you so much is that you took the risk to take the journey without predicting where it might lead because something inside was calling you. And they say in the hero’s journey, the hero always resists at least three times. You know before they answer the call for all the reasons of the unpredictable journey. But the courage to follow. And you guys, we’ve talked a lot about that, the authenticity, the journey to being authentically yourself, and showing up as yourself is a difficult, difficult journey. It takes courage. I want to close with one last question since it ties closely to this and that’s, let’s see, who had the question on dreaming?
Blythe: Hi, I’m Blythe again. On your website, you emphasized the power of dreaming and of collective dreaming. Can you talk more about what it means to participate in a collective dream?
Maria Pacheco: Yeah, I mean when I started, like I was telling you, I was dreaming of a world where people are in peace all the time, while my country was at war. And I think what a dream was is it sets you to look forward. And a dream carries energy of love, the energy of gratitude. Because I think it’s ok to be angry at some point, but to be angry all the time will make you an angry person. So I think a dream is something that it doesn’t- it’s like a GPS you know? A GPS doesn’t ask you ‘why are you here?’ It just tells you if you’re here or how do you get to your dream. So I think the dream is always- when it’s hard, you’re looking for that, that’s your star, that’s your navigation star. And when I started in Guate, I was (can’t understand), you know in school people like would say ‘Maria, you’re a communist’, you know, ‘leave us’. I mean I was never popular at school, I didn’t have friends from school. People would just single me out as the communist of the group. But I didn’t care because you know because I had this dream.
But always when I started it was me fighting- not fighting the world, but me trying to change the world. But as 30 years into this journey, I can say my job is just to talk about what we do, but we have- when I see like the nutritionist, (can’t understand), the love that she does with the kids. When I see Kendel, the guy that incubates. When I see my communication team, Isa. It’s just like instead of being like ‘I have to work so hard and this is not fun’, it’s really like now I come to enjoy the talents of people. So we always say in Wakami, an individual dream is strong, a collectable dream is unstoppable. But to do a collective dream means you also have to understand your role, your strength, what you can do. But what others are better than you at, and create the space to come together, and to come together, and come together.
So for me right now, I would say from a girl that didn’t want to be Guatemalan, that didn’t want to be a girl, wanted to run away from my country; now I love this world because I’m finding a way not to change everything, but a way in which by being myself I can contribute to others and in celebration with others. But there’s a skill that somebody like me that dreams always finds it hard but it’s to also be able to tell the truth when needed. You know I was always somebody like trying to please everybody and ok but learning that. So the power of dreams is very, very powerful.
So women, when they start their process with us, they draw their dreams like they draw houses and when it’s hard when the husband says ‘you can’t do it’ or when the bracelet doesn’t come out right, they have that dream. And every week, the technician says, ‘how close are we to the dream?’ So also, you know sometimes you have big dreams, but what we also do is celebrate the little. The first brick, the second brick, and you know one day Santos says ‘Maria, more orders, I need to build the doors’, you know? But it’s the same for me. I have this dream of happy people and happier. Everything that leads to that I celebrate, I celebrate. So I try whatever I do fits within that dream because then it’s worth it. But the power of collectiveness is you will be blown away when many people come together like I have (can’t hear).
Ward Mailliard: Yeah. That’s how Mount Madonna Center and Mount Madonna School were created, as part of a collective dream. People coming together and making a sacrifice. Passing it on to the next generation is the challenge. So someday we have to have a conversation about that. So you guys understand now why I wanted you to have the opportunity to speak with Maria. Maria, I can’t thank you enough for the inspiration and the- I mean for what you do in the world, but taking time for us, to inspire us. This is a wonderful group of young people who I have a lot of faith and belief in and my goal is to help put the ground under their dreams because I believe in them. And partnering with you in this moment is really very, very meaningful to me and I just want to thank you for being willing to take the time with all that I know that you have to do. That it’s a tremendous gift as always and especially.
Maria Pacheco: Can I say something before we go?
Ward Mailliard: You may. You get the last word.
Maria Pacheco: Yeah, I think well first thank you, because I think God, I wish I would’ve had a teacher like that. So thank you Ward for all that you do, I think it’s incredible. Thank you guys for opening up to me and just giving me so much faith in what is to come and I just want to share something because you started saying that you know you feel the weight but it’s an opportunity and so all of these words and I just want to close with something that I think is important and for me, it’s not a sacrifice for me to be out in the villages. I love the villages. I mean it’s a sacrifice to wear a suit every day. But for me- for you, you can change the world best using the talents of the things that you love to do. It doesn’t require sacrificing yourself, it requires enhancing yourself. So if you’re an artist, a painter, if you’re a business person, you have to- to change the world, you have to love what you do. And that is your talent, and how you use it, that’s where the biggest gift is.
The other thing is you guys are young, so be gentle with yourselves. You know yeah, like you can’t- like every decision you make you can’t- I mean sometimes you have to choose what battle you’re going to be in and so I’m saying be gentle with yourself, be gentle- transitions are important. As the world evolved, we’ll be having more and more and better and better options. So be gentle with yourselves. You’re 17 or 18, so radical- well sometimes it’s needed. Some of us are sometimes like that. But also just- always just finding a little way to improve each time is good rather than demanding perfection in social and environmental in any way. So just be gentle and acknowledge the little steps you make rather than noticing what you’re not doing. And do it for yourself and for your friends. Because high school can be- I did high school in Kansas and oh my God, no bueno like my husband would say. And just remember that you have a huge talent, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s local, whether it’s global. Like we say in Wakami, global change begins at home. So I’d love to hear the projects you’re doing. Because if you can connect locally to something that you really care about, that will be the basis for (can’t understand). No action is too small. And every action will teach you something and lead you somewhere different. Once you take a step you can see some different things.
But yeah, my thing is always, and I tell my daughter, when you’re faced with something hard: you choose love or you choose hate. And how many times you choose one versus the other is going to determine totally different ways of being. So you can change the world with love. And I just want to ask you to send me the information and the beautiful theory and all that that you quoted because I think you just found new words for what I didn’t know had words. And I stay with that as well. That’s a gift besides seeing you as a teacher and seeing you guys so engaged. I learned something today that I want to learn more about.
Ward Mailliard: Beautiful, well you have my promise on that. Thank you so much for your time, it’s such a gift to us.
Maria Pacheco: Thank you. Thank you, guys.
Students: Thank you.